Episode 4 | From Numbers to Narratives - How Accountants Shape Business Success | Interview with Emmy Mulholland | Enriched Wealth Podcast

14 Nov

In this episode of The Enriched Wealth Podcast, host Kris Tatt sits down with Emmy Mulholland, Partner and General Manager of Tax and Accounting at Strategem. Emmy shares her inspiring journey from an unconventional path to becoming a trusted advisor for small businesses, and how she turns numbers into meaningful stories for her clients.

With over a decade of experience, Emmy reflects on the rewarding aspects of working closely with business owners, helping them navigate their financial challenges, and empowering them to achieve long-term success. She discusses the unique blend of strategic planning, tax compliance, and people skills needed to build and sustain strong client relationships.

Whether you’re a business owner, budding entrepreneur, or simply curious about the behind-the-scenes of accounting, this episode offers valuable insights into how accountants play a pivotal role in shaping the future of businesses.

Tune in for Emmy’s expert advice on everything from cash flow management to succession planning, and learn why building relationships with your accountant can be one of the most enriching aspects of your business journey.

Don't miss out on this engaging conversation!

Learn More About Kris Tatt →

Learn more About Emmy Mulholland →

Transcript

Kris Tatt

All right, well, welcome to the Enriched Wealth podcast.

This week we have Emmy joining us as our special guest.

So looking forward to getting into it.

Welcome, Emmy.

Emmy Mulholland

Thank you.

Very excited to be here.

Kris Tatt

Great.

Now Emmy, I'm going to throw you in the deep end.

Tell us a little bit about what you currently do at Stratagem.

Emmy Mulholland

What I currently do at Stratagem.

So I am the general manager of our tax and accounting department.

I am, yeah, I work as an accountant predominantly.

I also, yeah, am a partner.

I've been a partner there for three years now, I think.

Yes, 11, three years.

Kris Tatt

Yeah, 11, three years.

Yep.

Emmy Mulholland

So yeah, that certainly keeps me busy.

Kris Tatt

Excellent.

And if we I made a lot of people here accounting and think boring numbers.

What what was the journey that sort of led you to become an accountant?

Like what, what sort of, you know, I don't assume you were sitting there at six years old and going, you know what accounting.

Emmy Mulholland

Well, it's actually really funny you say that cuz it's a little bit of a philosophical journey that I I suppose will go on to talk through why I became an accountant.

Kris Tatt

Let's go on the journey.

Emmy Mulholland

Let's go on the journey.

Yeah.

So it was a time in my life.

I was eight years old when my parents separated and when my mum left with us, we, we left the home and we were quite poor.

It was a very trying time for the family.

Yep, we, we didn't have a lot.

Mum did an amazing job.

She, you know, kept a roof over our heads and everything like that, but.

Kris Tatt

Mums do an amazing job like that, don't they?

Yes, yes.

Emmy Mulholland

Yeah, but it was always a point in my life as I went through, you know, teenage years and schooling and all of that, that I anchored back to.

And I just always said to myself, I never want to be there again.

So I worked pretty hard in finding that career wasn't accounting at AJ.

I was, I mean, my parents were actually rock'n'roll musicians.

So being an accountant's pretty outrageous.

Kris Tatt

Almost, almost like a little bit anti bit punk to a bit.

Emmy Mulholland

Of a rebel.

Kris Tatt

Yeah.

Wow.

OK, Yeah.

Emmy Mulholland

They'll like accounting.

What?

Yeah.

So it just meant that, you know, that that sort of journey through there was a bit bit roundabout, but it meant that I was really driven and I really wanted to be good at what I did.

Yeah.

Awesome.

So it was year 11.

I did accounting as a subject, and I was like, oh, oh, I get this.

I like this.

It's numbers that tell stories and it matches and wow.

So in year 11 I was like, got it, Accounting.

Kris Tatt

Wow.

And it's just that was it from then on.

Awesome.

Love that.

Yeah.

Emmy Mulholland

And it wasn't like I went through like year 12.

I was the only one who did accounting.

Wow, that's cool.

Yep.

So, you know, should have seen a little bit of writing on the wall when I reflect back on, you know, there's a, you know, bit of a skill shortage there, but Yep.

Yeah.

So I went on that journey, didn't know that public practise was where I wanted to land.

Kris Tatt

And I think that's one of the things people don't always realise about accounting.

There's lots of different areas, isn't there?

So it's not just doing tax returns.

There's big companies, there's there's audit, there's lots of different areas that you can get into.

And I think not knowing that before you get into it too, you sort of go, where's this going to lead lock?

What?

What are we going to do so?

Emmy Mulholland

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

There's a lot of opportunities in the realm of accounting.

Yep.

But yeah, I ended up taking opportunities that, you know, stratagem right out of uni, so.

Kris Tatt

Excellent.

Yep.

Emmy Mulholland

I managed to finish my last semester part time and at the time it was a graduate role.

Kris Tatt

Yes.

Emmy Mulholland

And been there ever since.

But one of the things I suppose, you know, that I that I stuck with in public practise and why I love what I do is that, you know, you do get to tell stories through numbers, yes, and that you are, you know, a big part of people's livelihoods.

You do go on a journey with them.

And, you know, and I also think like, you know, in reflecting on why I became an accountant and that, you know, that anchoring point as a child being on the poverty line, that, you know, you can actually influence people's lives and support them on that similar journey as well.

Kris Tatt

I love that if we go back a minute, uni three years.

Emmy Mulholland

Yeah, well, 3 1/2 because I had to do the, you know, finish the last semester halftime.

Yep.

Or.

Kris Tatt

You know, yeah, how, how did, how did you find the difference between uni and work?

Because it, it's quite a we don't get to do rounds in accounting and finance like you do as a nurse or a teacher.

So how did you find that contrast between the book work as opposed to the the the work work?

Emmy Mulholland

Yeah.

I mean, it's a really interesting, you know, concept of the, the, you know, theory versus practise.

Yep, for me, I, I actually got it like I really enjoyed, you know, the, the, you know, the legal aspect and, and the economic aspect and the statistical work that we would do.

I could envision pretty early on to how that all applied, you know, in, in a role in public practise and in tax.

Kris Tatt

Yes.

Emmy Mulholland

It's not the same for everyone though.

It's a, it's a, you know, it can be quite a big jump and we've even said that, oh, it's one of the younger guys we've got now.

He's even said that, you know, if he hadn't have got his internship with with us at Stratagem, he probably would have dropped out of his course.

So, you know, certainly and and, you know, I suppose that talks a lot back too as well that, you know, not necessarily knowing that I wanted to be in public practise, you know, maybe that helped me be able to sort of leverage the, you know, or, you know, sort of find that gap, manage that gap between theory and practise.

But yeah, it is.

It is a bit of a jump.

Kris Tatt

It is, yeah.

And and let's go out into the real world now.

So where you've gone from muni dealing with clients now?

Is it number crunching all day?

You know it, it's like everyone that I talked to that Oh, accountant or financial.

Oh, you must be good with numbers.

It's like numbers is a part of it.

But talk, talk through a bit about the fact that, well, I'll say the fact, but for you what what's been your experience in terms of being out there actually day to day in the reality of it?

Emmy Mulholland

Yeah, I mean, it is, it is an interesting one that and I think that's where, you know, there has been a bit of a, you know, a bit of a struggle to get people through accounting degrees or, or attract people to to the industry because people think, oh, it's all numbers.

I have to be a math wizard.

And and it actually isn't for a large part of what we do, the fundamentals of what we do.

We, you know, like I talked about before, is that you go on the journey and with, with, with people in their livelihoods, you know, you, you meet people that, you know, they might be just starting out in, in a small business, you know, they're just young, out of trade school or whatever, you know, just need that support.

And then you can you go on that journey with them and, you know, advise them throughout different courses of their lives that, you know, helps them build success.

And, you know, yeah, you're sort of there every step of the way.

A really big part of it.

Kris Tatt

So in terms of if we look at a ratio, if you think about your role now, how much of its people and how much of its number crunching?

Emmy Mulholland

I mean, can we do like 8020?

Yeah, yeah, full way because it really is it's you know, you you're having conversations with people every day.

They're making really important decisions in their, you know, in their business and and, you know, helping them with cash flow and things like that.

And, you know, and, and a lot of the systems and things, you know, were set up, technology set up now to, to produce those numbers.

And it's like I said before, it's the, you know, telling the story, yes, telling the story through those numbers.

Kris Tatt

And a lot of, I remember it explained to me a lot of the degree that we get at uni is just to give us, to make sure we know that the numbers are right.

It's not actually to write hand write numbers like we do with tests and things like that.

It's really more saying, how do we, how do we want to make sure that what we look at is reliable?

And that's sort of we can pick something up pretty quickly and look and go, Yep, that's right or that's wrong.

But it's more about the context or the, you mentioned the legal side as well.

So a lot of, a lot of it's legal, isn't it?

How much how much do you find is is you thinking through the legalities of things or the the legal implications of doing this or that for a client as well?

Emmy Mulholland

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, it's it's obviously a core part of tax is tax law.

And it's funny because I remember someone saying to me, you know, accountants are boring.

They don't like change as nothing more or less than change in, you know, a little more things that happen in our industry than change.

Kris Tatt

Every budget night.

Emmy Mulholland

Every budget night, right.

So you know, it is a lot of interpretating as well.

Yes, because you do have to interpret it the interpret the law and and also how best to apply it in circumstances for people.

Obviously nobody likes to pay tax, but we just have to apply that to the best of our ability.

Support, support people, yeah, minimising that exposure, but also, yeah, keeping them out of gaol, yes.

Kris Tatt

That's the other part.

Now if you think through been at stratagem, been in your career quite a while now, what's what's a, a scenario for a client that's really stood out for you where you were able to help them and sort of get them to a different place than they were when they first started with you?

Emmy Mulholland

Yeah, well, I.

Kris Tatt

Didn't pick one.

There's a.

Emmy Mulholland

Few.

Yeah, there's a few.

I mean, yeah, like you say, when you've, you've been been around for a little while, you sort of build some core relationships.

You know, you do go on the journey, but one in particular was, you know, a, a small business that in, in the retail slash construction side of in, in that sort of area.

Yep.

And they, they were at a point where they were looking to shut the doors.

It just, you know, they were, they were barely making a wage out of the business and things were looking pretty grim.

We had to have some tough conversations around that and worked on some strategies that could help sort of turn things around.

So we worked pretty closely together and we're able to evidently turn it around.

COVID hit and there was so much uncertainty and we just, you know, we sort of had to stay close in managing and watching cash and, you know, all those sort of things that turns out that COVID was the best years that they'd had.

So that presented itself with opportunities, but also just sticking close to make sure we understand what that meant and that things don't run away from us.

Because sometimes growth, you know, gets, you know, ahead of us a little bit and we can lose sight of, you know, obligations and, and strategies that, that are in place to, to manage that growth.

Kris Tatt

Yep.

And and I think that's one of the the things for business owners, isn't it is that it's not necessarily boom and bust, but it can't, there are cycles and sometimes when the cycles are good, we forget about the harder times.

And so there's almost a, I'm sure you've seen that you've got to sort of manage that, that expectation a little bit.

Do you find that?

Emmy Mulholland

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So you, you sort of have to, you know, go on that journey with them and you know, that's, that's the, the people's side of it as well that we talked about.

So.

Kris Tatt

Is as much behavioural as there is any as there is the numbers element, isn't there with it sometimes.

Emmy Mulholland

And for some, you know, yeah, some business owners are more receptive to that than others.

But you build good relationships and they value your advice and they value the trust that although, yeah, they have that trust in you to be able to give them the right advice.

So, so, yeah.

And so evidently COVID was good years.

So rode that wave and then they were able to they outgrew the space that they were in where they were operating out of and yeah, bought and built a new commercial property for them to to grow and expand.

Excellent.

Kris Tatt

What a what an amazing, great story to get from almost closing the doors to having to outgrowing the space they're in.

And, and from there, so and, and you get to be a part of that journey, which I think is the exciting.

But isn't it you?

Yeah, Yeah.

That's really good.

Emmy Mulholland

So rewarding.

Kris Tatt

Yeah.

Now it's not all about tax either, is it?

Because you you actually go in and help businesses as well?

It's not just about lodging their bass or lodging their tax return, is it?

Emmy Mulholland

Yeah, Yeah.

Well, a lot of that work, you know, to talk to that client, you know, was, was, you know, forward thinking, being proactive where, you know, we're looking at real time data and projecting cash flows and, you know, you know, looking at margins and, you know, maintaining profitability and and strategies to do that.

Yeah.

So compliance work is obviously a big part of what, you know, what we do that's as tax agents, that's what we do.

But yeah, all the enriching work that we do is in that advisory space where we.

Yeah.

Kris Tatt

Yep, taking it to the next level and sort of making the numbers mean something more than what happened a little while ago.

Emmy Mulholland

Exactly right, yeah.

Kris Tatt

Yep.

Now that's really good.

We want to shift gears a little bit.

We might come back to clients a little bit later, but you're also in a leadership role at Stratagem, so you're dealing with staff as well too.

How do you how do you find that juggle between clients and staff?

Emmy Mulholland

It's, you know, there's not a lot of difference if you like, in terms of, you know, supporting people and managing their development and their journey.

There's a lot of similarities if you, you know, you sort of break it down a little bit.

But yeah, I mean, there's a lot of opportunities at Stratagem and, you know, and as an accountant, you know, that we've, as I've talked through a bit my journey of being able to support people and you know, the, that's the kind of, you know, environment we like to cultivate where, you know, there's a, there's a lot of focus on people's careers and their development and so that they can, they can see their success as well.

Kris Tatt

Because you've been integral to in developing a pathway of strategy revenue.

So it's not just come in and do the job, it's really about where where you can go as well, isn't it?

Emmy Mulholland

Yeah, absolutely.

You know, the pathways framework programme is, is a really important part of our staff development.

So they, yeah, there's, there's obviously when you come into, you know, fresh out of uni, yes, it's quite daunting.

And so we have a lot of structure around a graduate programme that's, you know, built on the fundamentals of that pathway.

And then as you go through, you know, you move through intermediate roles and then into senior.

And then then it's basically beyond the pathways, you know, And for some people that will look like, you know, a call through to partnership.

It could be a really satisfactory, enriching career as a senior or it could be, you know, something, something else that, you know, means that they specialise in and, yeah, feel like they're having a, you know, successful career.

Kris Tatt

Awesome, That's really good.

I love, I love that there is that framework for development and I think that that really helps people see a bit of a, it's not just you get out of uni and you just do, it's actually there's a whole whole new thing to learn and a whole new thing to do and, and there's all the experience that you don't have to accumulate as part of it.

I love too that you talked about it from a, it's just like clients.

We we're just taking people on the journey.

So whether it's staff or it's clients, it's people and we want to help them grow.

If I go back to clients for a little bit, we've obviously you mentioned COVID, so we sort of had that period pre COVID, then we went into COVID where everything sort of changed and we had the new normal and different things like that.

We're now we're at the other side.

What are you seeing as some of the struggles for businesses at the moment now that we're out the other side of, of all of that and we're sort of back to, you know, social distancing feels like a million years ago and, and everything else.

What, what are you seeing sort of now that that that's all played out a little bit more?

Emmy Mulholland

Yeah, I, I mean, at this post COVID, we were able to sort of normalise some some years now and say, you know where where profitability is and where, you know, where trends are and things in different industries.

But there's certainly been other pressures that have surfaced that have meant different challenges or a new set of challenges for clients and.

Kris Tatt

You know, cost of living isn't just a individual struggle, it's a business struggle as well too, isn't it?

Emmy Mulholland

It absolutely flows down to those small businesses and, you know, there's certain industries that are, you know, starting to tighten their belts quite a lot.

And yeah, that's, you know, that's a lot of, you know, what we're saying is, you know, just pulling the reins back a little bit and, you know, certain growth strategies are now more of an internal efficiency look at things rather than, you know, trying to grow into new markets and things like that.

So, so yeah, a little bit of just, you know, holding, holding horse on things, you know, just holding, holding back a little bit.

But yeah.

Kris Tatt

Do you, let's say business came to you, would you and said how can we do things differently?

Obviously you've got insights there that you can bring to that business around if it is a cost cutting exercise or even where do I cut the cost, cut the cost.

Because I think sometimes we sort of broad brush stroke the cost cuts and it's almost like, no, no, no, you don't want to lose the ability to grow.

You don't want to cut off your that that vital source of being able to bring in more revenue.

So it's, yeah.

So talk us through a bit of that process for yourself.

If you're reviewing a a client situation, maybe it's a new client that's come to you and sort of said, what can we do differently?

Emmy Mulholland

Yeah, I like it.

It is different for different industries, different businesses, different goals and objectives.

And yeah, but there, you know, when, when we're looking at, you know, areas to improve, it is, it is sort of hovering up and saying, well, what what's, what's your strategy here?

What are we?

What are we trying to achieve?

Kris Tatt

I love that we bring it back to that first because.

That's sort of, that's going to be the guiding principle, doesn't it?

Because you can sort of say do this, but that's only relevant if you want to grow or do that.

But that's only relevant if you want to sort of look at exiting or things like that.

So I think that's, that's a crucial part to understand, isn't it?

It's.

Emmy Mulholland

Like, you know, like tradies for instance, you know, there's a certain level they get to and they go, oh, got to get into commercial, you know, got to get out on the big, big commercial jobs.

And there's a whole set of challenges that come with that and, you know, in, you know, how they manage that is a whole different mindset to, you know, just doing some or doing, you know, domestic or residential stuff, which, you know, it might be that, hey, you know what, this model is actually really good and you do it really well.

Let's you know, let's find ways that way we can grow that model.

Yes, rather than moving into something that possibly doesn't suit what you what you do.

Kris Tatt

And I think that's, that's great that it's not all about just pivoting to the next thing or thinking that's the progression.

It's actually saying, well, if we, if we, if we do this really well, don't break it, don't break it for the next thing.

Let's let's continue to lean into that.

I'll lock that.

That's that's really good.

Emmy Mulholland

Yes, yeah, we definitely, yeah, we definitely want to work to people's, you know, core goals and, and what they're really good at and what they want to achieve.

So yeah.

Kris Tatt

Excellent.

If I, if I think about a business and, and I'm, let's say I wanted to start a business tomorrow and I was thinking through what are some of the things I might need to think about if I came to you what, what are some of the things that you'd get me to start thinking through?

Because I've probably got an idea and I'm thinking I can set up a website and I've got, you know, this, that I want this, I want to do.

But there's probably a whole range of things I haven't thought about.

And you probably see that from time to time.

Do you when?

Yeah, and, and, and it's not saying the business is not as bad.

It's just sort of saying there's, there's a whole raft of things that we don't that we don't always think about because we're we're focused on this bit or that bit.

And I think that's where accountants can come in and add a lot of value is around saying here, here's how we can support you so you can focus on doing your bit well too, Because I think so often, you know, we, we someone might be good at one area, but they're not at another.

And that's fine.

You don't have to be good at everything, but get the right people involved to help you be good at the other things so you don't have to worry about them.

So if I came to you as a budding entrepreneur thinking about setting up a business, what are what are some of the things that you would want to talk me through as I'm, as I'm starting to think about that and sort of saying I've got this great idea, Emmy.

Emmy Mulholland

So I, I suppose, you know, one of the, the first things that we try and flesh out is do you understand what it is to own your own business?

Yep, because you know, there's so many moving parts that you know, I mean, a lot of the attraction is, you know, I get to kiss my own hours and, and absolutely you do, but they're twice as many.

Kris Tatt

Let's say you have to choose all eighty of them instead of Yeah, yeah.

Not that every business is like that.

We're not don't want to scare everyone, but there is there.

There can be a lot more work, especially in those start up years as well too.

Can't there where it's.

Emmy Mulholland

That's right, Yep, and it's just, you know, building some good education and understanding of, you know, numbers and and what they're telling you as well.

And as you said before as well, is that, you know, it's not just, you know, they have to understand everything.

It's it's leaning into, you know, people that can support you in understanding those things and allowing you to focus on what you're really good at.

Yes, which is what you were saying before.

So, you know, so we try and would, what we would try and, you know, cultivate that relationship as well to say, you know, we, we need to work closely and, and look at look at numbers and, and, you know, talk through, you know, metrics that we would set in place to sort of support that.

Cash is king, as everyone says yes.

So understanding that's really important.

You know, when you've got obligations elsewhere, you know, with the Ato and things like that, it's really, really important to understand what cash you actually do have.

Yes, cuz it may.

Kris Tatt

Seem like I've got a lot now until that tax bill comes along and then that's right.

Then you'd actually have anywhere near as much as you thought.

Yeah, Yeah.

But if you've already gone and spent it on the holiday, yes, yeah, it can can be a bit debt for rental at times.

Emmy Mulholland

Yeah.

And then, you know, there's, there's a lot of work we do, you know, in, in debt funding versus cash flow funding for in for equipment and things like that.

You know that, you know there's a, there's a decision making that needs to happen on, you know, whether you finance something or you, you purchase it at your working capital.

Kris Tatt

And they're obviously numbers that need to be run and understanding all the implications, isn't it?

That's right.

Emmy Mulholland

Yeah.

And understanding too that like, yeah, yeah, yeah, the bank will give you finance or you know, whatever provider will give you some equipment finance.

But you know, that means that that in, you know, piece of equipment that you're investing in is gonna cost you that much more.

And you know, you need to make sure that you're returning on that.

And the, you know, the flip side too, because some people, you know, think no, no, no, no, I don't want to spend more so I don't debt fund.

Too risky and they spend all their working capital, yes, and sell themselves short.

Kris Tatt

Yeah.

And it is, it is understanding that balance, isn't it?

Or what's the trade off of if I do it this way?

Have I just cut off my knees to be able to grow or do that as well too so.

Emmy Mulholland

That's.

Kris Tatt

It.

But just because you can get financed doesn't mean you should either.

Yeah, yeah.

Emmy Mulholland

Yeah, yeah, Work with the accountant to yeah, pick the strategy.

Kris Tatt

No, the numbers, I think, Yep, that's a, that's a big part of it.

So we've talked, that's great.

So think a bit about the start up.

We've talked a bit about a business that might be growing, but you're probably seeing a few businesses too thinking about exiting as well.

So what are, what are some of the things if, if I'm a client, I need to start thinking about from an exit point of view?

Because I, I probably love my business and think it's great and I think it's probably worth X.

But until you actually get a business valuation and get someone to come in and, and, and lift the hood and sort of see what's underneath it can, it can be a little bit of just a thinking, thinking numbers or thinking ideas.

Or you might think it's only worth this where it's actually got quite a bit of potential and value in it as well too.

So what do, what do you sort of come in and help people do as they're transitioning to either selling or thinking about exiting or, or setting?

Emmy Mulholland

Up.

Yeah, I mean, yeah, interestingly, you, you come in a lot earlier than you think in this space because often times, you know, people get to the, you know, to that point and it's, you know, they, they've had enough and it's retirement time or, you know, when they haven't actually built enough retirement or they don't have a core succession plan.

So you know, it's important that you know prior to that, that point that we know what your, your succession plan looks like.

Kris Tatt

And it's not saying it can't change, is it?

So I think sometimes two people go as soon as I write it down, it's in snow.

Well, it's not, it's not like that at all.

It's just saying if we're not planning for the end, we're not, we're not planning.

And it's like we're talking think about it from retirement point of view.

We see clients all the time and it's when's the best time to come and talk about retirement?

Well, give yourself some lead time.

Don't just do what to start off with, prepare, have a plan in place, build towards it.

So, so if you're seeing someone and you're coming in that bit earlier, what are some of the things you're starting to look at with them around that?

You mentioned succession planning.

Emmy Mulholland

Yeah, well, succession planning's the the big one.

I think, you know, a lot of a lot of small business owners, mum and dad are you know, idealistic about, you know, passing it down to the children which you can't envision what they are going to want to do.

Sometimes they do want to follow in the footsteps and different industries cool to that than others.

But it might be that we want to position ourselves and we want to grow a business that we can sell.

Kris Tatt

And.

Emmy Mulholland

It might be, you know, not so much that they sell completely out to to, you know, sell like a big corporate in some industries.

It might actually be that, you know, they actually just bring other people in as well and, you know.

Kris Tatt

Like selling to an employee or.

Emmy Mulholland

Or.

Kris Tatt

Or, you know, a potential outsider that could come in and take over.

Emmy Mulholland

Yeah.

So, you know, they're the kind of things, you know.

Yeah.

Like it's a bit difficult at the start to you know, to map out, but we do always try and have a long term lens on it so that we can set them up in the right structures that allow for that, yes.

Kris Tatt

Because I think too, if you get the exit right, you can you can do it really well or you can do it wrong and it can cost you a fair bit as well too, kind of.

Emmy Mulholland

Well, that's right.

Yeah.

Yep.

Kris Tatt

Yep, Excellent, great.

Well, I'm that's, that's really good.

If we think if we just, I just want to talk about succession planning for Olivia, because I think that's something that can get done really well or can not get done well.

So what, what would you say is that first step when people are starting to think about succession planning?

We mentioned the kids.

What what are what are some of the things people should either do or some of the discussions people might have as as that starting point, do you think?

Emmy Mulholland

Well, I think it's, I mean it.

It just has to start with some open, honest conversations, you know, cuz for some people, and I know I've talked about that idealistic thing where we keep it in the family, but for some people it's the opposite.

You know, that they're like, no, no, no, I don't want the kids anywhere near it.

So we've got to have those open, honest conversations.

Kris Tatt

But with the kids too, maybe because the kids might be going.

I don't want to do that.

I don't want that.

I appreciate the gesture, but that's not really what I had planned.

So yeah, it that the conversations are crucial, aren't they?

Emmy Mulholland

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And it's, you know, it's sort of working out too, what retirement looks like, what, what that, that looks like in the future.

And, you know, I guess that's where, you know, you and I kind of cross worlds.

Kris Tatt

A little bit, yes.

Emmy Mulholland

In, yeah, working out what, what that kind of looks like for certain people, yeah.

Kris Tatt

The exit is the, the beginning of the next thing at the end of the day, that's really good.

So I, I love, love that we're thinking about, we've talked a bit about the start up, the growth, the exit.

If we talk, I just want to talk a little bit about structures because I think some people either don't appreciate the structures that we can put clients into or appreciate how that can sort of look from a, you know, what, what that might mean for them.

And, and sometimes too, we're thinking when we're putting people on instructions, we're thinking 10 years time as well, because what, what makes sense right now when they're small might necessarily actually be a real detriment to them as they as they get, as they grow and they and they get to a different place.

So can we talk through just a few few of the structures you deal with and how they look and and why they might be important to?

Yeah.

Emmy Mulholland

To think about it, Well, I mean, it's like we sort of mentioned before about that long term lens on, on, you know what, what the structure looks like.

So we, you know, you, you do try and flesh that out.

It's crystal balling, of course, but and like you say, things change, but you know, you also don't wanna over complicate things for the sake of it.

No, And sometimes people, you know, get stuck in this mindset.

Oh, I have to have a, you know, a company and a company over here and have to do all this.

And it's like, well, hang on, let's actually map it all out.

Kris Tatt

What's the intention?

Emmy Mulholland

What's the intention?

What's our costs and benefits, you know, because certainly you know, asset protection is a big one that plays into wire structure is the way it is flexibility in trade and things like that as well as a really important one and how you operate your business.

Succession planning, how you know, if you how you want succession to happen and if you want to bring people in, we need to make sure we've got one that's adaptable and flexible to set you up.

But yeah, I suppose common trading structures are usually corporate entities, companies, and we often say that, you know, shares in those companies, so you know who owns that company.

We can actually put in discretionary trusts.

So discretionary trusts, IRA, a conduit if you like, they're an investment vehicle.

They don't actually they're not considered a separate legal entity.

They're governed by just a trust deed for the management of assets on behalf of beneficiaries.

So that asset being the shares in the company means that in a long term lens, we're able to structure income coming through that entity structure with dividends and manage, you know that that those dividend income, that dividend income coming out to different beneficiaries.

And so that's a common one that we set up.

There's also the ability to set up a discretionary trust to trade in.

We, we often where we've got certain types of property as as the asset as I talked about with the trust holding assets, unit trusts are quite common in that space, which are the same as a discretionary trust, but just fixed entitlement.

Yes.

So everybody knows it's got.

Kris Tatt

Units rather than just it can go wherever.

Emmy Mulholland

It can go wherever, Yeah, for the, you know, as a broad brush of beneficiaries.

Kris Tatt

And there's also some legal implications to be thinking about too, isn't it?

So if I'm acting as a sole trader, I'm much more exposed legally than I am through.

Emmy Mulholland

Well, that's that's exactly right.

And that's the cost benefit analysis you do.

So I as I was, you know, talking through that sort of probably, you know, top of the tier kind of complexity.

I mean, obviously bigger groups get a bit more complex, but it's.

Kris Tatt

It's here and there and.

Emmy Mulholland

Everywhere around, Yep, consolidated entries and holding companies and things, but you know, but it might actually be that Yep, you know what sole trader just makes sense.

And that's just you trading.

There's not a real lot of risk exposure.

You know, assets are are home and thing are all protected, but it is possible too.

And the Ato understand this as well, is that, you know, there is flexibility as you grow that you can, you know, transition into and restructure it.

It does make things a little bit hard, but you know, there's the opportunities that you know you can't do that.

Kris Tatt

Yeah, excellent.

And that's, that's really good.

And I think that's one of the things that people don't always appreciate is that it's it's as much around how we structure everything, not just not just saying, well, here's here's your numbers.

And they they look fine at saying, well, let's make sure we've got you in the right structure.

Let's make sure that we've thought about those things because you may be paying tax unnecessarily or you may be taking on risk unnecessarily that in, in any other circumstance we would be saying no, let's, let's do this instead and, and let's fix that up.

Otherwise we're going to have issues in terms of, let's say a company is growing, obviously a taking on on staff as well and things like that.

What are some of the things that you see that that businesses run into when they start taking on staff or they start growing?

And some of those, just some of those things that that we that need to be thought about as part of that, that growth strategy of it's not just put someone in a position and it just happens well.

Emmy Mulholland

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Like anything you invest in, you invest in people in business.

And you know, we one of those, you know, core part of of, you know, monitoring the numbers is making sure you know that those, those numbers stack up from employing people and that we've got enough people to do the work that you need to do.

And with growth strategies, it's an investment.

It is.

And it might mean that you're taking on employees that will take 12 months to to allow you to, to expand and grow.

Yep.

But it is really important to understand capacity and and yeah, that investment strategy.

Kris Tatt

Yep.

And you obviously support clients through that journey as well to say if we bring on here's how it can look, Yeah, here's how we can leverage that to grow as well.

But it's also people are people, people need to learn the role.

And I know even when I've trained staff, the amount of stuff I, I forget is second nature in the role and sort of go, yeah, OK, I need to show you that as well.

And you just sort of get used to doing things on autopilot a little bit.

And you forget that that for someone new that's they're not an autopilot.

So how do we, you know, how do we make sure we take them on that journey?

So understanding those other bits of the puzzle when you're taking on staff, I think is is is definitely a big part of it.

Emmy Mulholland

Yeah, and that's right.

It's, you know, I think we, I guess as business owners ourselves, we're able to relate in that space and be able to to you know, guide and nurture other business owners on leadership qualities and and being able to develop their staff and and set really clear expectations.

You know, I think that's a real core part that, you know, allows everybody to enjoy what they're doing and, and yeah, have the rewards in all the roles that they they work in now.

Kris Tatt

That's really good.

I, I love that.

Thank you for that.

If we, if we move shift gears a little bit again and we start, we start looking out in terms of some of the projections you're doing with clients.

Are we seeing, are you seeing clients fearful about the future at the moment or sort of, you know, blue skies away we go.

Emmy Mulholland

Yeah, no, there is a lot of optimism It it's, it's just hindered a little bit at the minute with, you know, certain circumstances in different industries, yes.

But you know, the there's a lot of confidence starting to build in in those kind of projections.

Kris Tatt

Yeah, excellent.

Emmy Mulholland

Forward.

So yeah, it's just kind of, I mean, you know, we're probably over the battening down the hatches, yes, in, in a lot of ways, but it's still just, you know, just just keeping your eyes on those numbers and making sure we're yeah, we're, yeah, we're, we're in a good position to, to move forward.

Kris Tatt

But you're saying it, it is a bit industry specific, isn't it?

It's not necessarily every industry facing the same struggles.

It is.

It can be very.

Emmy Mulholland

Absolutely, yeah.

And that's, you know, I guess that's, you know, I guess a lot of the challenges that we face, but also, you know, what I love, why I love what I do is that, you know, it's every day's, you know, presents itself with a new challenge.

And you know, you have to you have to think a bit commercially and laterally about things that you know, you have to adapt, that, you know, one, one way of thinking for one person is different for another.

And, and you know, in different industries need different things.

So, you know, so you get to, you get to adapt and you know, it's not the same going round and round every day.

No.

And we're always learning.

And that's a core, you know, core value for us is, you know, we're always learning.

So yes.

Kris Tatt

Now that's that's really good.

Excellent.

Did you have one one last story that you'd like to share one last one last nugget for people to to take home client experience?

I don't.

Emmy Mulholland

Know I don't know there's I mean.

I guess, you know, I the, along the journey, I've seen some incredible people grow and achieve some wonderful success.

And I guess, you know, there was another client's story, which is, you know, warms my heart a lot only because, yeah, personally it's just a beautiful thing that's, you know, relationship that's built.

And yeah, that, yeah.

The, we had one years and years ago.

And it was actually before my time, not far before, but a little bit before.

And it was mom and dad and, and mom was actually, she had a little, a little shop in town and she was coming to get some advice around that.

And she said, oh, my husband, he works.

He actually works in the mines, but he's looking to go out on his own thinking we might see if you, you know, could you have a chat to him?

And yeah, yeah, no worries.

See what you want to do next minute.

He's just built this empire across Australia, moved, moved into state and stays in contact.

Like obviously we're still the accountant and we, we're still the trusted advisor and you know, we go over there regularly to, to support them and in all various ways.

But, you know, we've actually built a long lasting relationship that, you know, means that, you know, takes us to the footy and, you know, like we we've actually became ingrained in in everyday life.

And, you know, I think that's a really, you know, when I reflect on, you know, the journey and what's rewarding and enriching, you know, it's being able to to say that and I able to, you know, build those long lasting relationships.

Kris Tatt

Yes, yeah.

And I think there's real value in that long term, isn't there?

Because you get to support through the trend, see the the good and the bad times where if you just come in cold, you don't always get get that.

So being able to build that relationship and get that knowledge I think is really important, isn't it?

Emmy Mulholland

Yeah, yeah.

And it's, you know, to the point that where they're dealing with, you know, solicitors and, you know, planners and, you know, things like that where they're ringing us going, oh, they can't speak highly enough of you.

We're not allowed to do anything unless we talk to you.

And it's just, yeah, it's just really, I guess, you know, enriching to know that that's the impact that we have in people's lives.

Kris Tatt

That's very good.

Well, Emmy, thank you so much for the time today.

Thank you so much for sharing stories and insights and bringing some of your experience to the table.

It's been great.

Just want to say yeah, thank you, thank you and go from.

Emmy Mulholland

There.

Well, that's all.

Yep, Yep.