Episode 14 | Building Strong Workplace Cultures with Aishleen O’Sullivan

15 Aug

Written By The KH Studio

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About Aishleen

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In this episode of the Enriched Wealth Podcast, Kris Tatt is joined by Aishleen O’Sullivan, People and Culture Manager at Strategem, for an open and insightful conversation about building strong workplace cultures, creating career pathways, and supporting people beyond the job title.

With a passion for recruitment, retention, and real conversations, Aishleen shares how Strategem’s people-first approach has evolved — and why investing in your team is one of the smartest business moves you can make.

They unpack:

The link between culture and performance
Creating supportive pathways for early-career professionals
How to build trust with your team and why it matters
What jobseekers are really looking for today
The importance of flexibility, autonomy, and accountability in modern workplaces
Whether you’re growing a team or looking to join one, this episode is packed with valuable perspective on what it means to lead and live with purpose at work.

Transcript

Kris Tatt

Welcome to the Rich Wealth Podcast.

We're excited to have Ashley join us this week.

Ashley is our HR manager here at Stratagem and we're excited to be talking to her today.

Ashley, welcome.

Thank.

Aishleen O’Sullivan

You thank you for.

Kris Tatt

Having me, I'm going to call you Ashley episode, if that's all right.

I feel Ashley is a little formal for a podcast.

I think please do, but thank you for joining us now.

You are our HR manager here at Stratagem, yes.

How many years have you been sitting in that role for now?

Aishleen O’Sullivan

So I've been with the team, oh, just over three years, Yeah.

And it's, it's gone quickly.

But yeah, very enjoyable.

Kris Tatt

It does feel longer than that.

So yeah, that's in a good way.

But no, no, no, that's that's really good.

So you came and joined the team back in 22 then, Yes.

Yep.

And and before that, what, what were you were you were other places not professional services?

Aishleen O’Sullivan

No.

So prior to coming to Stratagem, I spent my HR career working in I guess manufacturing facilities, which yeah, is a different, different experience.

And and yeah, obviously coming over into professional services has been a bit of a bridge, yes, but it's been a great one to cross.

Kris Tatt

Excellent.

And we might touch on some more of that later on, but I'd love to hear a bit about your journey into HR 'cause I, you know, I don't meet many young people who are like, I want to be a HR manager.

Like it's not sort of a, like my kids at home are firefighters or, you know, veterinarians.

They're, they're not sort of saying at the moment HR manager.

So what, what sort of drew you to that role?

What was sort of the the catalyst to go?

That's what I want to do when I grow up.

Aishleen O’Sullivan

Yep.

So I or.

Kris Tatt

If you're waiting to grow up.

Aishleen O’Sullivan

Yeah, I'm still, I'm still not growing up, so I actually didn't know what I wanted to do.

So completed VCA, didn't really have an idea and I was able to pick up an administration job in Melbourne and so I lived rurally.

So I travelled down to my little admin job and it was administration but I was supporting the EA of the business, right?

And so I had my little desk outside the CE OS office and you would watch the comings and goings and the decision making that was happening.

And at the end of that year I was really certain that I wanted to do human resources and it wasn't something that I knew before that experience.

So I went away, went to uni, studied here in Bendigo, Yep, which was a really nice experience.

And then I was fortunate enough to go back to that organisation and do a little.

Kris Tatt

Bit of wow.

Aishleen O’Sullivan

So HR, like entry level HR roles were really hard to pick up in Bendigo, like really difficult.

Kris Tatt

Probably still are now I would say.

Aishleen O’Sullivan

Yeah, the market's changed a little bit.

Yep.

But then it was certainly, Yeah, we need people with experience.

Yep.

And yeah, HR probably wasn't as prevalent then as what it is.

Kris Tatt

Now I love, I love, though that you went out and got some experience just out there in the real world, because I think sometimes there's so much pressure on our year elevens and year twelves to know what they want to do for the rest of their life or what they want to spend the next three years studying.

But you sort of went out and got something real life experience and said that that really interests me.

That's what I want to do.

And I think that's sometimes the missing piece for some people is that they just haven't actually got out the real world to see what that role looks like or what that means.

I love, love that you're able to get that, that experience and sort of nail down that's, and it gives you much better focus.

Like I, I actually had a year off in the middle of uni and I remember getting up at, it was a early morning job and I had to be there at 6:30 in the morning working outside as a Stallman.

And I very quickly said, you know what, I'd be really excited to spend the rest of my days working in an office.

So that was sort of my drive to get back in and finish off the degree.

But that's really good.

So did the degree, went back and did a bit of work as their HR manager then.

Aishleen O’Sullivan

Well, so.

Kris Tatt

I or HR?

Aishleen O’Sullivan

I went back and supported in an admin capacity while some room in the HR team freed up.

And so start started then in HR admin did AHR officer role and then an opportunity came up to kind of business partner their manufacturing and supply chain division.

Wow.

So I was able to, which meant, you know, being based at that facility, which was a bit of a culture shock initially.

So so yeah, I look back at that.

And think, yeah, it was such an adjustment, but really important for my career.

So then I was the primary person dealing with unions and.

Kris Tatt

And the Union?

Aishleen O’Sullivan

Reps and stuff like.

Kris Tatt

That jumped in the deep end.

Aishleen O’Sullivan

Very quickly and I was really fortunate to have fantastic support around me.

So when I was my manager and mentors in the business that really cared and let me challenged me safely and if I ever failed with that help.

And at the time I can remember feeling like it was painful.

But now looking back on it, it's like that makes sense.

I can see what they were doing and I'm so grateful for it so.

Kris Tatt

Yeah, and a strong mentor is really important, isn't it?

Like in terms of career development and that experience and that safety to be able to fail sometimes because we're all gonna, we're all going to muck, muck up.

We're all going to make mistakes.

But having the ability to have someone support you in that rather than haul you through the calls where you almost live in fear of taking any action because you're scared of what the outcome might be, That's.

Yeah.

I love that you've been out of mentors in that capacity.

Aishleen O’Sullivan

Yeah.

And they really stretched me.

And yeah, you know, when you're living it, you're like, can you stop?

But yeah, the other side, it makes sense.

So I did that for a good few years.

And then the travel, I was commuting from Bendigo the whole time, and then the travel got too much.

So I found HR manufacturing role closer to home and that was another fantastic experience.

Very challenging but so important for my career and where I am now.

Kris Tatt

OK, that's awesome.

In terms of we talk about mentors and things like that, have you had a mix of male, female mentors been predominantly one way or the other or?

Aishleen O’Sullivan

Yeah, So yeah, mixed gender.

Yep.

Mixed functions too.

OK, great.

You know, over the journey you get paired up like I'd be paired up with someone not necessarily in the HR function.

Yep.

And that at the time, I was like, oh, this will be interesting.

But just their ability to bring a different lens to what you're doing.

Yes, was.

Yeah, so important.

Kris Tatt

I'm gonna ask a really simple question here, and this is because one curiosity and two people.

People listening may not know as well too.

What does a HR manager do?

Aishleen O’Sullivan

Oh, HR manager.

Kris Tatt

Does because I think we all have we have all these ideas there ahead of what it might be and we know that it's working with humans because the name helps say that.

But like day to day, what does it actually look like for you?

And and we might talk a bit about the contrast between what it looked like in a manufacturing role as opposed to a professional services firm now, because that's probably a little bit of a contrast as well too, I would say in terms of some of the activities you're undertaking, but would just love to hear a bit more about was it made day to day?

Because I think there'd be a few listeners out there going, I have no idea, or that's a, you know, that's a big corporation type thing that has Ahr person.

But what is the?

What does it look like for you in that role?

Aishleen O’Sullivan

Yeah, so HR, like I often joke, to be a really successful HR person, you almost have to be a chameleon and you've got to be really agile and be able to change hats.

Kris Tatt

Yep.

Aishleen O’Sullivan

Multiple times during the day, so you know, some you'll be present in strategy discussions or help executing and delivering a strategy.

You'll be someone soft place to fall when they need support or a listening, uh, you're the person who's mitigating risk.

So, you know, looking at industrial relations legislation, making sure we're compliant, making sure the pays are right, that type of stuff.

So it's really.

Kris Tatt

It's a very varied role, isn't it?

Aishleen O’Sullivan

Very varied, you know, kind of considered the chief of culture.

So a lot of people will come to you.

Yeah, for advice on yeah.

How do we set the cultural tone?

What else should we be doing?

Yes, but it's it's very varied and lots of hats multiple times a day.

Kris Tatt

So, and I think, I think that helps give people some context that it's not just a specific thing that you do or it's not that you're busy writing performance reviews all day or thinking what carrot or stick can I bring out for staff members this week.

It's actually there's a lot of areas that you're involved in and it's almost like the human side of the business, absolutely in a lot of ways.

Aishleen O’Sullivan

And it is, it is driven like what you'll do is driven predominantly by the role and the size of the organisation you're in.

So in previous roles where the organisation was a lot bigger, you would specialise in your own kind of part of human resources.

So you know, I wouldn't necessarily look after remuneration.

I was more dealing with the people on the cold face every day, what issues they were facing, what were the challenges, and when things go wrong, you're the person that's called in too.

So yeah, it can be really dependent on where you are and the size of the business.

Kris Tatt

Yep.

And so if we look at that you, you went from a manufacturing a role at a manufacturing organisation to now probably a smaller business at Stratagem in terms of people size, probably a bit different in terms of role as well too.

What are some of the contrasts you found from, you know, the manufacturing side to working with the bank counters or the number of people?

Aishleen O’Sullivan

Yes, the biggest change I noticed early, and it was a bit of an adjustment for me, was I felt like I kind of became specialised in managing a bit of.

Kris Tatt

Chaos.

Aishleen O’Sullivan

Yep, and so.

Kris Tatt

When I and you, I mean, you joined the firm while we're in the midst of coming out of the, the throes of COVID and, and all of what, what was going on with, with that as well too.

So it was quite a, quite a time of change for a lot of industries or you know, trying to readjust back to normal as well.

So yes.

Aishleen O’Sullivan

Yeah.

So that was that was a bit of a transition.

It was like, OK, now this is an opportunity to kind of hone my skills and level up a little bit, yes, because there's not going to be a some chaos around to manage.

That was a bit of an adjustment for me.

Yep.

And I'm trying to think and I think to the adjustment from, you know, being in manufacturing, you're producing A widget.

So yes, you know, goods come into the factory, we value add, put them through our manufacturing process and then a product leaves and then coming into a service firm where you don't have that physicality of of what we're working on was was a bit bit of a different, yeah, adjustment for me.

Kris Tatt

And you probably some of the staff members you're working with are different as well, aren't you?

Because you know, yes, there are people who would want a career in manufacturing, but there's probably a lot of other people who are there because it's a job where a lot of times in professional services firm, you're dealing with people who have gone through uni and this is their career.

Like this is they're on a, they're on a career directory or they're on a, they're wanting to specialise or they're wanting to develop their skills within the industry.

So you sort of it's a different probably motivation that you're dealing with, with staff members and probably different expectations around some of that as well too.

I would, I would find say what's important at a manufacturing level is not necessarily important for service.

Yeah, a lot of adjustment.

Aishleen O’Sullivan

Lots of adjustment.

Kris Tatt

Is this, is this the first time you've been on your own as AHR person 'cause I know you've been in teams in the past, so is this the first?

Aishleen O’Sullivan

That that was, yeah, this is the first role where it's been like the sole, Yep, HR lead.

And yeah, having coming from an environment where you're working with quite a large HR team and you're working as part of that was an adjustment in terms of, you know, sometimes in human resources you're working on, you know, matters that are very sensitive.

And, you know, in larger teams, you kind of have that ability to walk through those situations as a team.

And yeah.

Having having that differences was a bit of an adjustment.

It was like, OK, well where's my team now and who are those people that I can go to for support and bounce things off of?

So yeah, yeah, it's been a different way of.

Kris Tatt

Thinking, yeah, good, good experience, though I want to talk a little bit about small business because I think sometimes small business doesn't the the HR side of small business, you know, we just need people in we need them to get them to do a job.

Think of a small maybe, maybe they've been a, a sole, sole operator and now they're finding their first staff members or they've they've got one or two staff members and they're growing and they need more staff members.

The actual HR side of the the the management isn't necessarily for for sort that, you know, when people are busy, it's we need boots on the ground.

We need this done.

We need this looked after for customers and we need this made or things like that where the actual for the owner, sometimes they they don't always think about that HR impact or what they need to do there.

What are some of the things businesses need to be thinking about if they're wanting to take on their first staff member or wanting to grow and scale and what impact that has?

Because I think, you know, even as a business owner for myself, we don't always give credence to the fact that our role changes when we when we have staff that we need to look after them.

We're not just, we're not just on the coalface anymore or we're not just at the clients.

We're actually we've got this whole other element to be thinking about.

Aishleen O’Sullivan

Yeah, I think to, to pick up on your point, I think the first thing is when you're growing and expanding and and bringing staff on is don't underestimate how much time you'll need to invest into it.

Yes, I think it's really easy to go, oh, OK, we'll we'll have so and so to do that now.

Oh great.

It's going to free up so much of my time and yes, having that staff member May.

Kris Tatt

But in six months or 12 months, Not right now, so.

Aishleen O’Sullivan

It's the training and onboarding of that person, how you're making sure that they're settling, settling in to to get success quickly.

The other thing is, you know.

Kris Tatt

Which is getting bigger and bigger, isn't it like if we think single touch payroll is there, like I'm just even talking to the numbers side, single touch payroll superannuation and that they're, they're becoming much more of a focus for places like the ATL as well and things like that.

So if you're not paying correctly, they're going to come at you a lot quicker and a lot harder.

But there's also all the other side, which you've seen a bit more on the manufacturing side is the the risks for the directors as well.

Yeah, So love you to talk a bit about those kind of risks and, and what people might not realise is actually out there.

If something happens to one of these staff members.

And this isn't to keep people awake at night, but it is to highlight that there are there are things there are real risks sitting out there for for the owner.

It's not just I bring staff on and staff do job, there is there is potential risks in that.

Aishleen O’Sullivan

Yeah.

So obviously depending on the industry you're in and the risks in your industry and, you know, plant and equipment and stuff like that, obviously then your health and safety plays a much larger role.

Yep.

And you know, health and safety is, you know, for me as a professional, it's such a such a fundamental to get right.

Yes.

And you know, it's not just something that you need, you need to think about in a manufacturing space.

It's, you know, professional services like us, you know, the health and safety, your mental health, mental health and safety is so important.

Kris Tatt

Which is a, which is a big one now, which people might not be aware of is the psychological barriers that are now within workplace expectations as well, isn't there?

Aishleen O’Sullivan

Yeah, absolutely.

And so if we go back to like work, health and safety, so there's, you know, first of all the the cost of when you get it wrong.

Kris Tatt

Yes.

Aishleen O’Sullivan

Are so big just from a person impact perspective, but then if you look at to the impact to the business, obviously there's reputational impact, but then there's, you know fines, you know, now there is industrial manslaughter that is considered, you know, a crime.

Kris Tatt

So, So what what what does that actually mean from a?

So someone dies on worksite?

You could actually be.

I'm charged for manslaughter.

Yes, if you're the business owner.

Aishleen O’Sullivan

Yeah.

And so fines associated with that and, you know, obviously depending on the circumstances to the most serious, the result could be prison.

So it's a really serious issue, workplace health and safety and looking after your people.

And I don't think anyone can afford to get it wrong.

Kris Tatt

No, sleep on it.

And, and, and it's not, it's not about avoiding your responsibilities.

It's about saying you are, you are literally that much more responsible and you've got to make sure that you get it right because it is, it is there, there are that you know it.

You can't just get away with it or you can't just go, well, that that was their own fault.

Yeah, there there will be elements that you'll be assessed on as part of that.

Aishleen O’Sullivan

And I think too, you know, sometimes as a small business owner, there's so much out there that it can kind of workplace health and safety.

It can get a little bit overwhelming, in which case I would say, you know, lean on the resources that Worksafe have for you.

If in doubt, ask.

Don't just cross your fingers and hope for the best.

Kris Tatt

No.

And I think you've helped support a couple of businesses too within Stratagems client base as well around some of these things as well and just thinking contracts.

Aishleen O’Sullivan

You know.

Kris Tatt

Employment issues and things like that, because it can be a minefield and, and, and you don't necessarily have the skill set for that.

And I mean, I know I can learn on you, you know, when there's staff issues and things like that as well too, just to get that perspective, all that, that other side that I haven't thought about as well too.

So I think there's just a whole risk side that people aren't necessarily aware of.

And it's just also knowing when those red flags go up, I'm saying, oh, actually this is, this is an issue.

There's something I need to be more cognizant of or more thinking about as part of what I'm doing day to day rather than just going, Oh no, it should be right.

Aishleen O’Sullivan

Yeah.

And I often say you don't with, like, human resources.

And it can be so broad.

You don't have to know the answer.

You just have to know that something's not right.

Yes.

And then find the answer.

You know, there's lots of, you know, great resources around that people can rely on.

Kris Tatt

We touched on mental health too.

That's one that we're seeing more prevalent within workplaces as well.

What are some of the things people can be thinking of or just be watching out for in that space?

Because I think it's something that unless you're trained in it or unless you've got those eyes that you know, after you've gone through an occupational health and safety training, you start to see the issues around the place.

But it can be the same for mental health, where people aren't always necessarily cognizant of of what might be the warning signs or what might be the issues that people need to start considering.

Aishleen O’Sullivan

So I think first and foremost, if you're really close to your people, that's gonna you're gonna have the best chance of seeing the signs.

Yes.

So you know, some of the signs are, you know, are people kind of retracting from settings?

Are they keeping to themselves?

It could be coming out in their performance.

So, you know, if there's, you know, I've had situations where, you know, team members been underperforming.

And then, you know, when you sit down and you kind of work through it and it's like there's, there's some other stuff at play here too.

And yeah, knowing, knowing your people and just looking for the sign.

So isolation is a big one.

Kris Tatt

Yeah, but I think that's that's even a great message is that get to know your staff a bit better, actually take them out for coffee or or have have just those regular check insurance and and see how they're doing from a just a genuine care about them perspective.

We'll get we'll we'll help to see some of those those things pop up.

But people can actually access resources.

Well, like I know Stratagem's got the EAP.

So what, what, what does that look like?

How can employers maybe get that going in their in their business if they need to as.

Aishleen O’Sullivan

Well, so many employers, yeah, now will have an employee assistance programme which provides their team members with free access to counselling services.

And, you know, depending on your organisation, it might be capped at three or five sessions.

And that's a really good way for people to get confidential support and often immediate support.

We saw during COVID there was such a strain on, you know, frontline services, you know, not only like medical and hospital, but, you know, certainly that space in mental health And, you know, in the environments that I was in at that time, a lot of people who were experiencing difficulty couldn't actually access help.

So it was great to have any AP where we could kind of fast track them to that support.

But yeah.

Kris Tatt

Yeah, you touched on there about performance as well.

I think that's something people need to be conscious of is there are a lot of different things that can affect an employee's performance.

And sometimes when we're in the midst of being busy small business or you've got plenty of other pressures going on, sometimes it can just be they're just not up to scratch.

What are some of the things that can actually impact employee performance just so as a business owner, they might actually be thinking about?

It might not just be that they're lazy or they're not doing their job.

Aishleen O’Sullivan

Yeah, and you're right.

I think when we're all busy bubbling away in our own worlds, it's easy to go.

Mike's not doing X, Mike's not performing.

And you know, often times when you have situations like that and you're engaging with a leader, the first thing you'll ask is, well, does Mike actually know what he's supposed to do?

So, you know, are the expectations really clear?

Kris Tatt

So first steps clarity.

Aishleen O’Sullivan

Yes, yeah, absolutely.

Kris Tatt

And I guess what I think might be clear for someone isn't actually always clear for them.

Yep.

Especially when you bring on staff members.

I think sometimes, like I've been guilty of myself, I put the lens of what I've done for the last 10 years on someone who's seeing the problem for the first time.

We're going that that should take 5 minutes, but it's because I've done it for 10 years that it takes me 5 minutes.

Not Yep, yes, not that the first time it took me.

Aishleen O’Sullivan

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So the first thing I'd say is, are they aware of what they need to do?

Is it clear to them what are the barriers in their workplace that might mightn't be enabling that?

So for instance, you know, Mike was meant to get a report to me.

Oh, OK.

But was the reporting system working or like, you know, was there any barriers that we can control that's holding him back?

But the other thing too is.

Kris Tatt

Where?

So looking at what are the inputs to that output you're expecting from that staff member?

Are those inputs actually working or were they working against, you know, a supplier or something else that wasn't actually giving them what they needed?

Aishleen O’Sullivan

Almost like the organisational factors that could come into it.

Kris Tatt

So maybe ask a couple of questions first before deep diving into that's the problem.

Aishleen O’Sullivan

Yes, absolutely.

And, you know, so many times I think I think performance can kind of get a bit of a, well, performance conversations can almost be a bit of a dirty word.

And, you know, so many times, you know, leaders will come to you and they'll go, oh, you know, Mike, it's just not working with Mike.

And it's like, so have you spoken to him about it?

And it's like, do you reckon you could with me?

And it's like we can, but that also formalises it to a level.

And, you know, I reckon 90% of performance issues can be solved with just a conversation, a clear conversation with the leader and the team member.

So, yeah, I'd always encourage, you know, leaders to when you see something, lean in with curiosity quickly.

Don't let it bubble and fester.

Because I think, you know, we've all been through situations where, you know, perhaps an unperforming team member's been kind of left to their own devices.

And you know, it does have an impact on your culture and it affects the people that works with that work with them.

Kris Tatt

And we caught up earlier about this a couple of days ago when we were talking about what we're going to talk about and you actually had some interesting stats on performance or the impact on performance by, you know, just putting people together.

So do you want to talk a little bit about that?

Aishleen O’Sullivan

Yeah.

So an underperforming team member can have an up to 30% impact on the high performers around them on the high performers.

Kris Tatt

Outputs, right.

So what what you're saying is if you've got a poor performer and they're sitting next to two high performers, those high performers could reduce their output by up to 1/3, which is crazy to think about.

And, and it just goes to show you the impact on culture when you're not setting good culture, when you're not setting clarity around, what's the expectation?

And we'll include a couple of things in the show notes, just small things around maybe a simple framework if you want to have that clarity discussion around.

Because I know it's, even when you sit down, it's actually saying, we're here today to talk about what you need to do.

And we want to be clear about that because I think sometimes we can.

We, we, we either don't address it clearly enough or, or in our head, we think, and I'm, I'm talking from my experience here, what, what was it, what we thought might have been a clear conversation.

This, this stuff works like that.

They told me I did a great job rather than actually, actually I've got to pull my socks up and there's a couple of things I need to focus on and I'm not doing as good as I thought I was.

Aishleen O’Sullivan

Yeah, I always use the like the analogy, but it's like they're not mind reader.

Yeah, yeah.

So yeah, if you can be clear and.

Kris Tatt

And if you want to practise it, practise it with your spouse, because I, I find that when I talk to my wife, she's like, what are you talking about?

And it just helps me be much clearer and give a lot more clarity on some things that, yeah.

And I think too, sometimes we get caught up in industry speak.

And you would have found that coming from manufacturing to, to accounting and financial planning is we've got all these three letter acronyms for just about everything from, you know, Baz to GST to, you know, whatever.

Yeah, estimates of all these things where it's, oh, that's, that's the name for.

So what do you know about that?

And so, yeah, there's just all these things that we, we just live in day to day that a new team member comes on, it's like a deer in the headlights.

And we're like keep up where we've sort of developed that lingo over years of short end and things like that.

So I think it's just been clear.

Are we actually clear on exactly what it is, what what we need and the best place to try that is with someone who isn't in the industry and go is that clear?

No.

OK, I'll try again.

Aishleen O’Sullivan

I'll try again, yeah.

Kris Tatt

OK.

No, that's really good.

So we'll include in the show that's a little framework just on maybe having a clarity discussion and how that might look different to a normal catch up or a regular check in because you're kind of coming with a set, but without making it too official.

And I think that's some of the take home is you don't have to make everything official from the start.

It's actually saying we'll have that conversation with them, have that check in with them.

Is there something else going on impacting performance?

Are they, you know, is there trouble at home?

Is there is there a child that, you know, might be giving them grief or other things going on that that might be impacting them, a sick elderly parent or something like that that you weren't aware of?

And so I think it's being conscious that if you've got good workers and and something changes, just have a conversation because.

Yeah.

Aishleen O’Sullivan

Just check in.

Yep.

Kris Tatt

Yep, Yep, and it.

Aishleen O’Sullivan

Can be as it can be as simple as you know, Hey, I've, I've noticed you, you know, you've you're not participating much in meetings, you know, is, is something going on?

Is that Yeah, how you're feeling?

Yep.

And it doesn't have to be any any bigger than that to start with.

Kris Tatt

Yep, I love to talk a bit about, probably talk a bit about the risks and, and some of the things or some of the mitigations and things like that.

Love talk a bit about some of the benefits of having team members on your team and what that actually brings to business.

And I think sometimes people people think about it, but it's nice to talk about the positive sides as well too.

So what, what are some of the positives about having team members on the team?

And, and it's probably what gets you out of bed because without team members, you, you don't have jobs.

But yeah, there's, there's definitely great benefits to it as well too.

So I'd love to hear some of your insights into that.

And even if you've got a story around some of that as well, too.

Aishleen O’Sullivan

So, so for me, like in my yeah, I kind of see it as the culture kind of determine the enjoyment that I get out of work.

And you know, that's for for everyone, all employees and staff within a business.

So, you know, the benefits of having a really health healthy culture is that, you know, issues kind of get dealt with almost subconsciously.

Like when you've got a really strong culture and everyone is marching to the beat of the same drum.

If there is someone that's marching to a different drum or mightn't be as invested in the culture, it kind of shows up very quickly.

And with the beauty of that is you get to manage it really quickly.

Kris Tatt

Yep.

So strong culture actually makes things easier.

Clarity makes things easier.

And when we talk about good culture, we're not meaning you need a slide and a ping pong table like a Google or anything like that.

It's just about saying does everyone know what they should be doing and is everyone clear on their role within the team?

Aishleen O’Sullivan

Yes.

And, and culture is really, do you people care about what they do?

Do they care about each other?

Are they invested in getting results?

And yeah, are they having, you know, enjoying themselves while they're at it?

And yeah, I think yeah, if you've got a really strong culture as your foundation, yes, everything is easier.

So yeah, you're going to see less issues.

Executing strategy becomes easier.

So yeah, your culture is your like you live and die by your culture.

I I believe.

Kris Tatt

Yeah, Yep.

And it can.

I mean, there's that old adage of culture each strategy for breakfast.

But it really is the case because if you've got, if you've got good culture, when you bring in a strategy, everyone's like, I can see how that's going to help.

Let's do it.

And they drive in that direction where if you've got poor culture, it's just another excuse and another barrier and another thing to to rally against rather than rally for.

Isn't it really at the end of the day?

Yeah, that that is interesting.

Do you have any examples of where you've had poor culture and what what impacts that had on the business?

Because I know you've been in a couple of different places now, probably seen a few different culture perspectives and and different ways that it's approached as well too.

Aishleen O’Sullivan

Yeah.

So an example where you know, a culture hasn't been necessarily a +1 is, you know, one where there's lots of onerous rules, right.

So everything's, you know, right or wrong.

And so then it's all.

Kris Tatt

About there's no space for Greg, there's no space for actually that there's a reason they were doing that or there's a reason that outcome occurred.

If it wasn't X, then it's Y&Y is wrong.

Aishleen O’Sullivan

Yes, so which and then, you know, you find that stifles people's participation.

They want to innovate and, and make things better where it's like they're just coming in and doing a job and you know, you're either right or you're wrong.

You're either following the rules or you're not.

And if you're not following rules, there'll be discipline and there'll be a consequence and it you, things will just get dealt with from that way.

And.

Kris Tatt

It's.

Aishleen O’Sullivan

Really compliance driven.

Kris Tatt

Interesting talk about innovation though, because I think sometimes too, people can come into a business and they've got ideas or they're excited about what they could do to help, but then the culture says no, this is the way we do it.

Aishleen O’Sullivan

Yep.

And this is how we've always done it.

And I saw so and so that they they have this idea 10 years ago, but we didn't do it.

Kris Tatt

Yep, and it didn't work out.

Aishleen O’Sullivan

Straight away, those people that are innovators are just going to.

Kris Tatt

Go.

I'll just come and do my job.

Yep.

Aishleen O’Sullivan

Just come and get out and do you want to know what?

I'll probably move on.

So yeah.

Kris Tatt

Yep.

And that's, that's probably good little segue into what are, what are some of the warning signs that you might see for someone who might not be enjoying it or wanting to move on?

Like what are some of those flags that say they're not actually engaged as much as they were or I'm, I'm not actually getting their full participation or their full energy here.

What are some of those warning signs that you've seen that sort of put up a bit of a flag?

So maybe, maybe we need to have a different conversation around what what do we need to do to get you running at 100% or what what actually lights your fire?

What are some of the things you can help out with?

Aishleen O’Sullivan

So it's very driven by the individual.

So if you all of a sudden saw someone that was really driven taking a step back and like you said, their participation dropped, that's a really clear sign that they're perhaps looking for something different or not not being fulfilled from their role absenteeism as well.

That can be a.

Kris Tatt

Really good indicator.

Aishleen O’Sullivan

Yeah, so and almost like, you know, everyone gets sick and we have to care for our family members that get unwell.

But if it's out of the ordinary and kind of without an explanation, that's that can be a bit suspicious.

Yep.

And yeah, but you'll you'll see it in the quality of work too.

Yes.

They'll kind of start almost like phoning it in.

It's like I'll I'll come in and I'll get it done and I'll get out type of a thing.

So when you see those signs, yeah, that's when you really lean in and go, hey, how you feeling?

Is it?

Are you enjoying this?

What can we I've noticed and be really specific to like around the signs that you've noticed yes, you know it could be I noticed in that meeting something that you're generally normally really passionate about you using to.

Kris Tatt

Contribute.

Aishleen O’Sullivan

To Yep.

Do you want to talk me through it?

Kris Tatt

Also to so exiting, obviously some warning signs, but also to when we're hiring team members or thinking about people coming on board A-Team, what are some of the things you're looking at when you're interviewing and things like that as well, too.

What are some of the things that, and we're not asking to give away all the, all the, all the big spag of, of HR tricks here, but what is, what are the, some of the things that, that you see that are signs that would make a good employee when you're interviewing?

Because sometimes we're interviewing for people who might be coming to a role for the first time or they might be transitioning from different industries.

So we're not necessarily hiring based off their years of amazing experience within what they do, but they're actually coming because they bring a certain skill set that we're looking for as part of the business.

Aishleen O’Sullivan

So obviously we in, in our roles, we there's a big technical component to what we do, yes.

So that's important and we've always got to make sure that that's ticked off.

Kris Tatt

And I think it's it's getting specific about some of that too, because sometimes we can assume people know things and they might not.

And so if you want to know if someone knows something to ask, don't just assume.

Aishleen O’Sullivan

Yes.

And with those technical roles, I'll always bring in an expert because I don't know.

And yeah, but the other thing I really look for when I interview is cultural fit.

So, you know, being really open with your questions around, you know, why you're looking for a change and, you know, sometimes people can be a bit evasive in how they answer that question.

Yep.

And so that's kind of a a flag to watch for, you know, if they're a bit evasive around that.

And yeah, so and cultural fit.

So around yeah.

What's important for them Normally when you ask them what's important in their next workplace, it'll tell you why they're leaving their.

Kris Tatt

Last, yes.

Aishleen O’Sullivan

So that can be a really good insight and yeah, making sure we're always on the lookout for people that are team player and can talk to examples where they've had to play as part of the team.

Kris Tatt

And why is that important?

Aishleen O’Sullivan

Because we work as part of the team we don't like, you know, we're, we're so much more powerful as a group than as individuals.

And you know, in a workplace where collaboration is a core value, if we don't, if we don't have people collaborating at it tends to kind of, I guess, 'cause issues down the track.

Kris Tatt

Yep.

One of the other things I know that that we do when we're hiring and you've done and and you've actually had a little push back from time to time from different people is reference cheques as well.

Yes.

And, and we're when we're talking the other day, I actually said some of that's going out of vogue a little bit.

But you still say there's a, there's a value in sort of going through a bit of a due diligence process as part of hiring staff members and maybe even reading between the lines a little bit on, on some of what a.

Aishleen O’Sullivan

Reference.

Kris Tatt

Reference says, and we'll actually include in the show now it's just a little question and that you can actually ask a referee so that you've actually got some tools on what are some of the specific things I might need to ask to draw out some of the information that I'm looking for or lack of information as well.

Aishleen O’Sullivan

Yeah, cuz it's yeah, people, there's a kind of like, yeah, there's a group of professionals that believe kind of references are a bit out of fashion now and they're not really worth their wait.

Anyone can provide a fake one.

It's kind of the thought process, but still to this day, you know, when I recruit the information that I garner from a reference check.

And what you're really looking for in a reference check is if during the interviews, you've kind of felt not a red flag, but felt a bit of uncertainty in an area.

They're the they're the areas that you hone in on heavily in your reference check.

Yep.

And.

Kris Tatt

And I think too, sometimes when we're reading those interviews, if we're getting along well with someone, we can put our blinders up a little bit to some of the some of the the gaps that might be there that if you didn't get along well with them, those gaps would be a little bit more obvious.

But it's almost like speed dating and you say, oh, they were great.

You know, they had great personality.

Of course we would want to hire them.

I was like, did you what about this issue?

Oh, that kind of glossed over that.

I think it'll be all right.

And so it's it's making good notes within those interviews as well and been really objective looking at them the next day in the light of, you know, and I think too, when when you've when you're looking for that staff member, when you've got that gap in your team and you're like, we need to fill this.

We're desperate to fill it.

Sometimes that desperation means that can go on.

Yeah, the blinkers can go up or you can sort of go they're, they're fine.

They'll work out.

We just need someone to fill the role.

We can actually create more problems for ourselves.

Aishleen O’Sullivan

And one thing I know we try and do as much as possible as we interview in teams.

So we try and get as many diverse views on the candidate as we can to make a really balanced decision.

Yep, because.

Kris Tatt

So actually have the people who are going to work with them absolutely in the interviews as.

Aishleen O’Sullivan

Well, and, you know, that may mean they're being interviewed by a peer or the person that potentially is reporting to them is sitting on the interview.

But those relationships are going to be.

So if the candidate's successful, it's going to be so important, you know, to their success that it's like you really have to involve those people in the interview too.

But yeah, and I'd say circling back to references to, you know, when you're talking to referees, often what you're looking forward to is what they're not saying.

So yeah, there's kind of an art to reading between the lines.

But yeah, if you're asking really direct questions around teamwork and you're being given examples of other things that that can be a bit of a flag.

Kris Tatt

Or if they keep referencing that one time they did something rather than, that's just their normal mode of operation.

That's probably a bit of a yes, bit of a red flag as well.

OK, that's really good.

Just little things to be thinking about, little tricks wanted to talk about you talked there about direct questions and I wanted to have a little chat with you about you're you're someone that I've seen that hasn't shield away from those direct or maybe those tougher conversations and would love to talk a bit about how to have good tough conversations.

Because I find people sitting in one of two camps.

A lot of times they they sit in the camp of they will have tough conversations all day long, but do it in a way that gets everyone off side and makes everyone think that they're, you know, for the lack of a better word.

I'm trying to think of AG rated word to put here, but just people's perception of work with yeah, very difficult to work with or just that's them or they're just that's they just make things hard.

Or you have the other side where people are either way too diplomatic and nice and don't actually say the things that need to be said.

And so there's a real fine balance between being able to have a tough conversation where everyone walks away going.

It's a bit like having a cold shower is kind of necessary, but we all walk away happy as opposed to there's just more animosity and it just creates deeper divides.

And I think for the people who don't have the tough conversations, they're scared of the fallout.

And then there's those people have the tough conversations and they're just not aware of the fallout.

Aishleen O’Sullivan

And they leave the room and.

Kris Tatt

Yeah.

And then, yeah.

And then there's like turnover and everything like that.

And it's like, well, it must be we just keep hiring bad people rather than, you know, maybe there's there's a part that we're playing in that.

So I'd love to know where, how do you strike that balance of being able to have those tough conversations?

I know it's never perfect and and we're dealing with people.

So there's always a little bit of mess to it where when you're dealing with a machine, it's like operation A gets outcome B.

But what, what are some of those things that people can be thinking about when they're going to have those tough conversations?

Because I, I just see that we, from my experience, one of two camps and there's net.

I've never seen it really done well in the middle, but I have seen you find strike a bit of that balance.

So.

Aishleen O’Sullivan

I think the, the big with hard conversations and tough, tough topics, I think, yeah, it's so easy to shy away away from it.

And that is the worst thing you can do because then no one ever knows how you feel.

Then there's an impact to the business potentially.

So yeah, it's much, it's much better to try and have the conversation than not have it at all.

And I definitely think there is, yeah, a bit of a, a bit of a balanced approach you can take to get really good outcome.

So.

Kris Tatt

I'm not angry, I'm disappointed.

Aishleen O’Sullivan

The classic, I think, I think too, you've got to be honest but tactful in how you deliver it.

And you know, sometimes it's sometimes depending on your personality type, it can be a direct way of going about it can feel more natural.

And sometimes that's when those styles will leave the room in tatters, kind of.

Kris Tatt

Behind they walk outgoing.

Aishleen O’Sullivan

But yeah, for the pet those styles too, you know, I, I'd often recommend, you know, you come from a place of curiosity.

If you can start by asking questions, that's often a really nice way to open up the issue and and.

Kris Tatt

And so questions forces them to name it rather than you telling them what what maybe what the issue is, correct.

So that it's sort of getting them to bit of accountability and a bit of awareness as well too, which I think half the battle is awareness, isn't it?

Sometimes it's either the staff members not aware of what they're doing or what they're not doing.

And, and sometimes we're, we're acutely aware or you know.

Aishleen O’Sullivan

Vice versa.

So, and I think the the other thing too is, you know, just keeping in mind that it's not personal, it's not it's.

Kris Tatt

But I think too also if if you're asking questions or directing feedback, don't make it personal.

So don't make it about the person or about their character.

Make it about the problem, the process they're following, or the job they're doing or the issue at hand.

And keep the issue here in the middle for those listening at home.

I'm pointing to the middle of the table rather than to the person specifically, correct?

Aishleen O’Sullivan

Correct.

Yeah.

So yeah, if you can come from a place of curiosity and yeah, not, not directed at a person, I think that's a really good starting point.

And yeah, obviously being and honest as you can, but really tactful because the when you come across it in a work setting, when you have to have a hard conversation, the it's so important to remember that, you know, before you go in, if you're feeling comes some type of nervousness, it's like, well, we're all here to do the same thing.

We're all here to achieve this one outcome.

And this is a piece of that puzzle.

So I have a vested interest in getting to the bottom of this.

But actually the group that I'm talking to or the person that I'm talking to has an interest in it too.

So just remembering that you're kind of all in it together.

Kris Tatt

And I think too the naming what the impact of the outcomes having.

So I'd say, you know this is having an impact on customers trusting us.

If customers or clients don't trust us then they don't want to work with us and they don't want to refer to us and they won't think we're doing a good job.

So this has impacts further than just you and your role right now.

This has other areas that it's making difficult as well too.

So it's sort of bringing the whole why the issue's a problem, not just it's AU issue, yeah.

Aishleen O’Sullivan

Yep.

Kris Tatt

Yep.

Now I think that that's really good.

And I think, you know, that's that's something that people might struggle with or when they're in the midst of busy stress, which, you know, a lot of small businesses can sit in that space on a regular basis.

It's hard to pull yourself out of that and come and have an objective conversation without, you know, blowing the doors off or, or just going, you know what, we'll talk about that later.

And then it's three months down the track and we still haven't addressed it, which again, doesn't help for employees performance and for feedback too, because I think that's one thing timely yeah, that we might talk a little bit about is feedback for staff members as well every six months.

Is that, is that good just to say, hey, you're doing a good job, you know, six months later, let them know again.

Or does it need to be a little bit more a little bit more regular?

OK.

Aishleen O’Sullivan

Absolutely so.

Kris Tatt

I think and it's not just blowing within their sales every day going on.

It's got to be a quiet day, let's go.

But there's a little bit of you need, you need to have it timely and you need to have it regularly, don't you?

Aishleen O’Sullivan

And so you have, you may have, you know, formal processes around performance reviews and stuff like that where you know, it's quite scheduled.

But then underpinning that and supporting it is your, it might be a weekly one on one and even, you know, don't discount the value of a daily check in.

So, you know, it might be that, you know, I know we all get busy, but you know, when you come back into the office and your team's there just checking in and asking how did it go today, you know, with any barriers, is there anything you guys need me to work on?

Is there anything I can do to help 0?

Kris Tatt

Yeah, reverse feedback too.

Yes, yeah.

Aishleen O’Sullivan

And I find if those, they're almost like little heartbeat conversations, yes, if you're doing your heartbeat stuff well, you'll, you'll know stuff quicker and you'll be able to address it and then.

Kris Tatt

Because avoid.

Aishleen O’Sullivan

Blowing out.

Kris Tatt

From what I've read, an annual performance review should not reveal anything that hasn't already been addressed and discussed.

And I think sometimes people, there are a lot of people who stress about their performance reviews and there are people who've had poor experiences with performance reviews.

But I think what the thing to keep in mindful is, is that nothing new should be brought to the table in that 12 month review.

It should, there should be regular feedback that aligns with what happens at that 12 months.

So no one should be surprised by what's in there.

It should be almost a reflection on discussions that have happened up until that point, like a wrap up of the last five months.

Aishleen O’Sullivan

And I think to.

Kris Tatt

You a year in review?

Not yeah, not not a We're gonna talk about performance.

It's been terrible.

You haven't seen the numbers yet, but I'm here to whack you over the head with them.

His, his, you know, XY and Z.

Yep, that should be happening ongoing if there is an issue or if they're doing great, that should be ongoing as well too.

And I think that's, I know we're, we're building some of that into for the accounting side debriefs and things like that when they've finished a, a job.

But taking even just 5 minutes to say you did really well on that or here's an area that I think you need to improve on for next time.

It's almost like real time feedback.

And I think that's much more valuable than in three months time sitting down saying now I've accumulated your last 10 jobs, Here's the issues with your last 10 jobs, da, da, da, da, da, where it's almost like, well, it would have been great to know about that, but the first one and then when I've had issues with the next 9, but you've saved it all up and now keep me on the head.

And now I feel terrible and you know.

Aishleen O’Sullivan

And so that that feedback all throughout the year or continuously naturally just builds trust as where you know if you're, if you're holding things close to your chest and you're waiting to get into a performance review to share them with your team members, that is.

Kris Tatt

And staff members know when you're holding back.

Aishleen O’Sullivan

Yeah, they do.

They sense it.

We're all humans.

We can all read each other.

But yeah, if you're hoarding it up and and releasing it in a performance review, that is the single best way to break down any trust that you do have with your team member.

And you know, for those of us that, you know, do go into performance reviews and you know, feel a bit, a little bit of nervous business around what's to what's coming, I think, you know, if you can, if you can flip it in your mind and think, OK, Yep, we'll review the year.

But it's also an opportunity for me to understand, you know, what more can I do?

Or, you know, it's an opportunity to to hone in on, you know, what support do I need?

Is there any training and start talking about your career path as well?

So it's an opportunity for the employer, but more so the employee as well.

Kris Tatt

Yep, and I think too, there's there's a real opportunity in in some of those moments, actually draw out some of those things that you might find that you didn't know about that staff member or something they're really passionate about or in area that they would like extra support in that they just don't feel they have the skill set in at the moment that you like.

I'd love some training in this.

I had no idea.

Great.

Let's let's look into how we could do that or find you a mentor or something as well to to go down that road in our last couple of minutes.

We'd love, love to quickly just touch on and we didn't discuss this beforehand.

So I'm throwing it to you.

Yep, just a little bit about you.

You've obviously come through as as a female within the human resources space, probably dealt with a lot of different males, females genders throughout that time as well too.

Have you got some advice for some of our female this is out there who might, who might be feeling a bit of anxiety about having to have a tough conversation with a male team member or something like that?

Or do you see the gender roles playing a part in business or are they disappearing?

You've probably seen a lot change over the last 10 or 15 years as well too.

Just just your take as the human resource person on is that is that as much of an issue as it was or is it playing out differently these days?

Aishleen O’Sullivan

I think it's it's definitely gotten better from say 15 years ago starting out where you where you looked around the office and it was predominantly males.

Kris Tatt

Not that males are bad, but just can be intimidating.

Yes.

Aishleen O’Sullivan

But I would say it's hard because human resources, there's a caretaker element to it.

So I think it naturally attracts more females to the role in, in some respects.

But I've, I've, I feel really fortunate to kind of say I've never felt like my gender's been challenging through my career path and.

Kris Tatt

And you've sat in like we've had conversations about some of your previous roles, you've sat in some tough conversations, you've had some tough news to deliver to people and you know, people who have been violent in the workplace and that as well too.

So it's not just you're not just sitting with like minded people or saying, you know, you stole too many pens or something like that.

It's actually, you know, some pretty serious discussions.

Aishleen O’Sullivan

Quite often you're delivering, you know, for what the person on the other side of the table it's, you know, you're delivering an outcome that is going to change their life in, in a little respect.

You know, in terms of, you know, you can't discount that, you know, a finding of an investigation might result in a termination and then that person has a family to go back and support.

So I think you've always got to be mindful of how the other person is feeling and keep that front and centre even though they may have done the wrong thing.

But if you can, you know, deliver outcomes with clearly and with some compassion, you generally get a better outcome.

You're not going to have someone yelling across the table at you.

Kris Tatt

And I think, I think the big thing which I've I've seen from you is just being authentic, just being honest and authentic.

And I think that that sort of reduces some of that rather than going, oh, I have to act like this or I have to be like, that's actually just saying.

Aishleen O’Sullivan

Yeah.

Kris Tatt

I am who I am.

Aishleen O’Sullivan

Yeah.

And I think too, it's easy to kind of come into, you know, HR and think, oh, it's an it's an us and them with the team that you might be partnering with.

And that's the, I would encourage people not to think that way.

You know, everyone's all in it together.

We're all humans, we all make mistakes.

And I think, you know, no one rolls out of bed in the morning wanting to make your day worse than what?

Like no one sets out deliberately, you know, well, I mean very rarely.

So, you know, if you can kind of keep that front and centre in when you're navigating through issues and and leave with a bit of compassion, you're generally going to get a better outcome, yeah.

Kris Tatt

No, I love that.

And I think that's a great note to finish off.

Leave with compassion.

Everyone does make mistakes from time to time, and that's how you navigate it.

That that is that determines the outcome.

So, yeah, Ash, thank you so much for joining us today.

I really appreciate it.

Really appreciate some of the areas we've gone into and discussions we've had.

And yeah, it's been great to hear from you.

And as always, you're part of the Stratagem team.

But yeah, if if people want to talk about HR, you have supported some of the businesses internally as well too.