From Starting Out to Retirement: Financial Strategies for Every Stage of Life.
Financial decisions rarely exist in isolation. The choices you make today can influence your business, personal wealth, tax position and retirement plans well into the future.
In this episode of the Enriched Wealth Podcast, Kris Tatt is joined by Michael Cherry, Senior Financial Adviser, and Matthew Moran, Tax Manager at Strategem, to explore the financial considerations that arise at different stages of life.
Through three practical case studies, they unpack:
Starting a business while saving for a home
Superannuation, insurance and business structures
Building and preparing a business for eventual sale or succession
Planning for retirement and creating sustainable income
Estate planning and intergenerational wealth
Why accounting and financial planning are stronger when considered together
From starting out and building wealth to preparing for retirement, this episode highlights the value of looking beyond the immediate decision, understanding your goals and getting advice early.
Because sometimes, the most valuable thing you can do is simply ask the question.
Transcript
Kris Tatt
In this episode, I sit down with Matt and Michael from Stratagem.
Matt is a tax manager and Michael is a senior financial planner.
Together we discussed some case studies and get stuck into some of the real things that you might be dealing with in your life and within your business and some of the things that we deal with day to day to help you as clients.
So it is a great episode.
We're going to have some chapters in there as well, so you can jump to the ones that might be more relevant to you.
But the whole thing is worth a great listen and it's a great discussion.
So let's dive in together.
Welcome to the Enriched Wealth Podcast.
Today, I'm excited to be joined by Michael Cherry and Matt Moran, both professionals at our office.
Michael Cherry is a senior financial advisor and Matt is a tax manager.
Yeah, yeah.
Which is accountant, but also managing teams and workflow and things like that.
So what I want to do is a starting point because I love, I think listeners like to hear the journey and the passion, even if we're talking about numbers and accounting and things like that or financial planning.
So Michael, we're going to start with you, OK?
Love to hear a bit of your journey of what led you to go down the financial planning route.
What'd you do at uni?
What what are you passionate?
Why are you so passionate about financial planning?
Matthew Moran / Michael Cherry
Yeah, good question.
Good.
Where to start?
I, I grew up in there to go and I suppose kind of like any young lad, you know, you're sort of just going through the going through the motions trying to figure out exactly what you want to do.
Yeah.
Yeah, I, I like money and I like managing it.
I got a real kick out of trying to figure out setting up goals, planning where I'm going to go, what I'm going to do with it.
And so for me, from a very early age, I was always really interested in that look going into uni.
I mean, accounting, actually tried accounting and it really wasn't what I was after.
I was more about the fluff that comes from it all, like all the good stuff, like what's the money gonna do?
What's it mean?
How do you get that kind of yeah, yeah.
So naturally you just start reading some books, you sort of figure out which sort of path you want to go down.
But I still wasn't quite sure.
So I actually did business at uni, just thinking that that's probably a fairly well rounded degree to do Yes.
And then I met a financial planner that ran a firm locally and then I ended up doing a just a diploma of financial planning on the side of that.
So there you go.
Yeah.
So I started, I started with him in 2007 or 2006, somewhere around there after I finished my degree.
Kris Tatt
Great time to get into financial planning industry, just pre GFC.
Matthew Moran / Michael Cherry
And I mean, the interesting thing was back then it was a bit loosey goosey with the way people were investing.
So it was usually very aggressive because you just had a whole series of, you know, growth.
So I walked into a whole bunch of people that were just really confused as to why everything was dropping and all that.
So it was baptism of fire.
But you know, I mean, I got through it and it was good and.
Kris Tatt
You're still here.
I'm still here on the other side of it.
Matthew Moran / Michael Cherry
And thankfully, like actually the the interesting thing was I referred to my wise old man, my father and I said, dad, like, you know, what do I do with my life kind of deal?
You know, where do I go with all this?
And he says, son, one of the things you've got going for is you actually like dealing with money.
The average person doesn't and most people aren't interested really in that so.
Kris Tatt
And I think for us in the industry, we don't sort of give enough credit to the fact that we spend all day talking about it.
And I know sometimes we get clients into meetings and they're going, oh, hang on, explain this concept again.
And sometimes we go, oh, hang on, there's actually we deal with this.
We're talking about concessional contribution caps all day long.
It's a new, it's a new idea and concept for some of these people to even have to think about it.
So, yeah, there's a whole lot of things that we just do naturally that that I know is not necessarily natural for people.
And we'll probably hear a bit more from that with Matt as well, too.
Tax is definitely not something people think about until they get the tax bill.
So.
But yeah, it is, it is a thing.
If you love it, It's yeah.
Matthew Moran / Michael Cherry
Well, there's AI mean there's a balance, yeah, but I genuinely got a kick out of that kind of thing.
So for me, it was a fairly natural move into financial planning cuz that's really at its core what it's all about.
Yeah.
I mean, the industry's changed significantly from when I started and I think it's moved towards more of that sort of stuff.
It's definitely more now about the goal setting the reasons why rather than just focusing on, hey, let's get the best return for you.
So for me, it's I've stayed in the industry mainly because I've seen the growth and I can see now where the overall industry's headed.
So for me it's it's actually been really enjoyable.
Kris Tatt
And what's, what's, what's one reason why you're so passionate about this industry?
Because I know you, you are passionate and you love, you love helping clients.
But what, what gets you out of bed in the morning?
Like what?
What makes you love the job?
Matthew Moran / Michael Cherry
I think life is sounds a bit corny, right?
Life is to be lived, right?
It's not about just going in and doing the grind.
Sadly, most people are just doing the grind and it could be for very selfless reasons.
I've got to support the family, you know?
I've got to try trying, you know, buy the bigger house because, you know, growing, growing families, whatever.
So for me, it's about giving people the freedom and the flexibility to take control back over their overall trajectory of their life, yes, so that they can then hopefully just achieve what makes them happy.
You know, it could, it varies for every, everybody's different.
But if you don't know or you don't understand your position financially, it does make that side of it a lot more complex.
And unfortunately, I think what people do is they just accept what's put in front of them and they go, oh, this is it.
You know, what is it that quite, you know, a man lives a life of quiet desperation, you know, like it's it's just that sad sort of existence where they never really achieve what they want to achieve.
So for me, getting out of bed and having these conversations with people and showing them that there's more to, there can be more, you know, and it just comes down to goal setting, building a plan around how you're going to get and achieve those goals and then stick into it, you know?
Kris Tatt
And I loved what you said about what do you want to do?
Because I like, I know we have a lot of discussions where people have never really thought about what they want.
They're so busy just keeping the juggling the plates and keeping them spinning that they're not always thinking about, well, where do I want to be in five years?
Do I want to travel?
Do I want to do this?
What do I want to do?
How do we achieve it?
So I love, I love, love that passion.
That is awesome.
So thank you.
Thank you Michael, really appreciate that.
Matt, another exciting area, accounting what, what led you to accounting?
And I, I love having these stories 'cause I think sometimes people think, oh Gee, people have gotta have everything sorted, they've gotta know what they wanna do.
At uni, where sort of started in accounting, I actually started a psychology degree and then switched to business.
So everyone I think has a bit of a different story of how they've landed to where they are.
So what, what's your sort of story on how?
Yeah, So I, I grew up on a farm outside Ballarat, OK.
And from a young age I kind of realised that maybe that's not what I wanted to do with my life.
What kind of farm was it?
A spud farm, funnily enough at all.
Right.
So Yep, it's funny.
Yeah.
That's kind of was the theme at the time.
And lots of blood farmers around there.
Can you still look at potatoes?
Yeah.
I just asked my wife.
She's like, you want to have potatoes with every meal kind of thing, like it was when I was a kid.
Whereas now.
Yeah.
Yeah, I can.
Yes.
Mainly a chip format.
Yeah.
So I guess from a young age, I kind of found that there was a lot of hard work and, and it probably wasn't for me being a farmer, things like that.
I still love going back onto the farm and having a look around and see what's going on, but I could see that that wasn't really for me.
That wasn't my career, that wasn't my calling in life, I suppose.
So going to secondary school, I always loved the kind of the money and economics and canning and things like that, those kind of courses.
So when I got to uni, I went and did Bachelor of Commerce Deacon, but one of my other passions was sport.
And so there was a course that was Bachelor of Commerce with a sports management element to it as well.
So.
So yeah, I've got sort of two majors of accounting and sports management.
Yep.
Similar to Michael, I got a bit of sage advice from my old man back in the day as well.
Again, if you don't come away, are you from university without an accounting degree?
You're an idiot, basically.
So, but at the time, you're probably a bit like, oh, jeez, that's rough.
What if I don't want to do that?
And you, you know, as a kid, you know, sometimes the kids are a bit resistant and they want to stick it to their parents.
But I hate to admit it, he was right.
So, yeah, so, and I think there is some, I think some people discredit accounting because they go, oh, well, AI could do that or things like that.
But I think there's value in understanding how accounts work, how numbers work.
Like if you want to be in business, you've got to have some of that financial grounding and backing.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Help you along the journey.
I think that's it.
Yeah.
It's amazing how and look, there's varying degrees.
It's the number of people that we get through the doors and things like that, that there's people that are all over it and understand the insurance and outs and wherever you sent in their businesses spent compared to others that are great at what they do in their business and things like that.
But from the financial side of things there maybe just need a bit of extra help and assistance with that.
So there's often some some good wins and things like that there that can be really helpful for those sort of people that to help them achieve their dreams and their big goals in business and and what they can do.
But make sure that they're also, you know, I guess big part of what we do is compliance and making sure that everything is kind of done and done correctly so that they're not getting taps on the shoulder from the tax office or from someone like that as well.
So yeah, that's a lot of what we do, I guess, and sort of making sure that and just making sure people are, are right and know what's going on and take comfort in the fact that, Yep, everything's OK.
So Yep, yeah, be surprised sometimes that the things we get through the door that I've just done this thing like, I wish you had to spoke to us before that.
But yeah.
So, so first takeaway is call, call your accountant or your financial planner before you go and make any rash decisions.
Oh, if you're not sure, like if you're not sure, yes, Yep, yeah.
It's always worth a call.
Yep.
That's, that's that's some good advice.
What, what why are you so passionate about it?
Because I think some people look at accountants and think that's got to you just sit and play with numbers all day or yeah, where I think it's, it's very different to that when you get out there in the real world, isn't it?
That's right.
When you say you're an accountant, people just go, Oh yeah, you just, you know, crunching numbers all day.
And yeah, absolutely, that's a big part of our job.
But the more you're working it, you need to know the whys and the hows, the insurance and outs.
And it's a bigger piece for people in terms of like, you know, talking with Michael before about people's goals and the things like that as well that yeah, there's absolutely the transactional day to day number crunching, but there's also kind of, you know, what is people's long term goal and especially in business.
So how can we help and how can we sort of tie in with their current kind of setup?
And and you know, is there a better way of doing it looking at what they're doing as well?
So yes, you know, really looking at things in terms of is it, Yep, whatever you're doing is fine, great, keep doing what you're doing.
But it's that second pair of eyes, It's that kind of confirmation, I guess you can give to people or if there's something that maybe would work better for them.
Hey, have you thought about this option?
Have you considered doing something like that?
So Yep, there's always, it might be that not what you're doing is perfect and fine and we might not be able to help you a lot.
But there might also be some good opportunities out there that perhaps people didn't weren't aware of that can really help them and improve people's life and get a better reward for what they're doing.
You know, like no one likes, you know, the old Kerry Packer saying no one wants to pay more tax than they need to kind of thing.
So, you know, butchered that quote.
But yeah, like, that's right.
We're not going to hold you to it.
Thank you.
But yeah, I think absolutely we're we're able to go if we can see an opportunity there in what we do in the day to day, it's really good that we're able to sort of help people do that and make life better for people, right?
Yeah.
And and feel like they're getting somewhere and getting more reward for all their hard work and efforts and things like that as well.
So I think too, knowledge is power, isn't it?
So sometimes it's just to helping people understand that's it what they are are able to do or people only know what they know.
And so, yeah, like I said before, some people were all over it and know all the insurance and outs and aware of all the terminology and what they need to be doing.
And others just don't always know.
Like it's kind of that's where you, I guess part of what we do when we first sort of meet people and take them on as a client is to sort of get a sense of them and their knowledge and their understanding of not only their business, but their wider sort of framework and compliance.
And, you know, the operations and how it all kind of what what is available and out there for them to do.
So if people don't know that if they weren't aware that these sort of things exist and that's kind of our job.
And that's where there's really great value in what we do is being able to say, well, hey, have you considered looking at this particular option or something like that?
So, yeah, that's that's where sort of we can, that's probably a little more satisfying.
Part of what we do in our job is, you know, introducing people to concepts and ideas or structures or whatever it might be that yeah, just really reward them.
Yep.
No, that's, that's good.
So the reason I've got you both on today is I think one of the the powerful things about Stratagem is the fact that we've got financial planning and accounting under one roof.
And so we're not separate businesses or separate entities off doing all different things.
We want to work together to get the best outcome for clients.
And so I've got you both on today to run through some case studies because I thought we could give some updates on markets or on federal budgets or things like that, which has been talked to to death.
But rubber meets the road for a lot of people.
There's still a lot of fundamentals that, that we need to be thinking through when we're, when we're dealing with clients and probably things that people aren't always thinking about themselves when they come up to a situation, they're very, and people get and it's human nature.
You get very focused on the 1 issue or the one problem in front of you, not thinking sometimes a bigger picture.
And I think the value we bring is coming across the top and saying, well, have you thought about this?
What happens when that happens?
Let's make sure we're covered.
Let's make sure that we've got the risk, the tax, those sort of things considered as part of the, the process.
So I'm going to run through some case studies with you guys.
Now, these are a bit, these are a bit off the top of our head.
We haven't we haven't drawn on any real life examples and we recommend that this is a general advice.
This is general in nature.
So we're not saying please still go and get advice.
This is more just to get you guys out there thinking about if you sit in a similar, similar situation.
These are some of the things that you might need to start thinking through as part of that process.
So the first one I'm going to talk about is we've got a young lady, 28 years old, she's gone out on her own as a physio.
She's been doing a couple of years as an employee and now she's sort of operating on her own as a sole trader.
God is obviously renting, renting, renting us a space and, and seeing clients and things like that.
Her husband's at home with, with the the young child and she's sort of the one out there as, as the breadwinner and that they're wanting to save for a house.
What are some of the things they should be thinking about in these circumstances?
And Michael might start with you from a financial planning perspective.
I know I get questions all the time.
I've got some money I'm saving for a house deposit.
Where should I put it?
Do we go all in on Bitcoin?
Do we do we put it?
Do we put it all on the market?
Matthew Moran / Michael Cherry
Put on black.
Put on black, Chris.
Yeah.
No, look, that's a, that's an interesting case.
I mean, look, sort of to what I was saying before, I'd probably go back to the goals.
All right?
So what are they, what are they trying to achieve?
And you mentioned they're trying to buy a house.
Kris Tatt
Buy a house?
Yep.
Matthew Moran / Michael Cherry
I would also prompt the questions around like, well, besides I'd say how far are they through the process?
What does that look like?
Try to get a bit of an idea around what the the overall financial commitment's going to be for that.
Then it's about trying to really figure out their savings capacity or their cash flow, you know, and that comes through with the budgeting and whatnot, so.
Kris Tatt
And people don't like to own budgets, no.
Matthew Moran / Michael Cherry
I could count on probably one hand the amount of times people have actually done one.
Yes, I have one that mine's very intricate, but I get that it's not a particularly enjoyable thing for people to do.
But it's more around sort of saying, all right.
Kris Tatt
Well.
Matthew Moran / Michael Cherry
How realistic is these goals?
So let's just assume that they've got some, they've got some cash.
Probably some of the things that I would then say is now that we know what we're dealing with, we should also try to factor in the longer term plans as well.
Because straight off the bat there's two things.
There's two things came to my mind that if we focused really heavily on getting this house, if somebody's working for themselves, they may not be paying themselves any super.
So I know that it wasn't particularly something that was stated upfront, but I guess the concern that I would have is that, you know, young physio probably going to do really well over the long term but may not be paying in a self super at this stage.
Kris Tatt
And it's it's a big risk for self traders because they get out and that's about making making it work for themselves and they're not really thinking.
Matthew Moran / Michael Cherry
Well, they're 10 years.
Kris Tatt
Time 1520 years time they're just going.
I need to make make budget now.
What does that look like?
How do I break Even so?
Matthew Moran / Michael Cherry
They're just trying to put it all back in the business, which I which I get, but it's about it's awareness, it's about knowing that, you know, if they don't start putting these things into place now and they focus so heavily on this, this goal of getting the house, it can be doing themselves a bit of a disjustice.
Second of that, the husband's at home, stay at home, dad, his soup is going to take a hit as well.
So then it's just sort of thinking about what does the long term picture actually look like.
So I guess straight away I would deal with the cash flow management, this surplus income, what do we have to deal with?
What does it look like projected out and what's the timeframes?
And then folding all that into a broader retirement picture.
Kris Tatt
Yeah.
Probably on the other one, I was sort of thinking around that protection in terms of risk for her.
Matthew Moran / Michael Cherry
Yeah, well, she's 28, right?
I think she's.
Kris Tatt
28, yeah.
Matthew Moran / Michael Cherry
So really good time to review and look at personal insurance.
I mean, she may have some already.
He may have some.
He's a stay at home dad now.
So circumstances have changed.
They might need to review that if they're taking on debt and or have small children, there's a really good reason to make sure they're well protected.
So that's probably where a lot of the work could be focused as well.
Kris Tatt
And that's usually one of the costs people try to avoid or don't think.
Yeah, naturally, where at her stage in life, she, her asset is her her biggest value is her ability to be able to get up each day actually going to generate that income.
She doesn't have an established business operating itself.
She's not there and I'll.
Matthew Moran / Michael Cherry
I'll preface this too, right?
So it's interesting because in the brief, the, the clients doing this and come in saying I want to focus on getting house, she's probably not thinking about personal insurance.
And one of the value, like probably some of the really strong value that we can offer is that we, we raise this as a concern.
It's what you'd call an advisor identified need.
We, we, we're actually sort of bringing this to their attention saying, hey, it's all well and good that we can tackle these few items in a lot of a lot of services generally just focus on what the client is specifically asking for.
For example, you go see a mortgage broker, they'll give you a loan, you go to the dentist, they'll fix your teeth, That's it.
When you come to an advisor for advice.
So we're trained to look at those other aspects of the financial position to try to expand out on what we're actually.
Kris Tatt
Doing and I think too, we come with perspective of hundreds of other cases.
So we've seen similar situations.
We've heard the horror stories when people aren't covered or.
Something happens and they're not in a position like they don't have the insurance they need or they don't have this in place at the time and then they get there and there's issues.
So I think that perspective is very valuable that we bring to the table.
So Matt on the the tax side, sole trader good structure be in yeah, I guess the question would probably be what is the long term goal for the business and things like that as well.
So and I think that sometimes people aren't always thinking about what's the exit plan and it's not exit in terms of it needs to be $100 million business and and all these other things.
But what does it look like 20 years down the track and where do we want to get to with it, doesn't it?
Yeah, or, or even shorter term than that, like if the plan is at some point that I'll want to take on and expand the business.
I think there's capacity out there.
I'm, you know, I'm booked up flat out.
I could take on more and more clients if I possibly could.
So is there any ability to actually grow the business and take on employees and be able to sort of grow your revenue streams and things like that?
And taking on employees creates a whole other dynamic of complexity though, doesn't it?
That's right.
So and that's kind of, I guess part of a wider piece.
So as a sole trader, you know, if it's just someone doing it as a physio in this case, they're probably a bit restricted in terms of what they can do just with all the personal services income rules that are out there.
If they were to take on more employees and other staff members, other physios and things like that, then that kind of changes the ball game a little bit and opens up a number of options in terms of business structure that you could actually move the business across into and look at potentially, you know, something that might work out and a better, better outcomes in terms of not only tax, but long term sort of generation of value in in the business as well.
And also, I guess, you know, if an example of stay at home dad, is there any ability to be able to through structures and things like that to maybe use make use of his lower income tax rates and things like that to really help get a a better tax outcome for them as well?
So Yep, there's definitely potentially worth it a big conversation with the client about what is their long term goals and you know, is a sole traded their best structure to be in.
Yes, in terms of things like that as well.
But yeah, like you say, if you're taking on employees, there's additional sort of compliance issues there as well in terms of, you know, making sure that we're work cover and probably not payroll tax so much at that stage, but that's further down the tracks.
But got payday super now though on things like yeah, payday super.
So, yeah, there's a lot of if that's the goal, if if we're going to expand the business and actually, you know, take on more staff and really grow it, then yeah, there's a few things that we sort of, I guess need to be on top of straight away.
But there are options out there that perhaps if it was just going to be a sole trader and that's it, then yeah, there's probably a lot of considerations and and things that could be put in place before it even gets to that point.
So that it's the right structures there before you even start moving across into that so that you don't end up with a big tax headache later on as well.
So yes, yeah, Yep.
Now that that's really good.
And I think I think this is like anyone who's thinking about starting out or just in those throes of, you know, that maybe testing an idea and seeing where it goes.
It it is we hear time and time again, it's the goals.
But where do you want to go with this?
Because that will ultimately dictate what you need to do and, and where, what structures you need set up what, what other things you need set up around it.
Otherwise, if you're not clear, yeah, it can get messy very quickly, can't it?
That's it.
And that's probably where the most value, I guess, from what we do as accountants as well.
And it really ties in with financial planning as well.
You know, and you're probably going to hear the word goals a lot today.
But you know, if you're just coming in and going to do your tax return and you leave again, you know, great.
And that might be all that you need to do.
But if there's a, if you look, I'm working and I'm thinking about doing this, like that's where, you know, getting the advice early and getting someone to actually sort of say, oh, and give you an idea about what you know, your options are, is really there's a lot of value in that.
Rather than just sort of ploughing on and, and just sticking with what, you know, kind of thing there, there, there is potentially some real value out there in talking and having a chat to someone, actually being able to discuss, discuss your situation and, and sort of what is your long term plan And, and you know, can we help you?
Is there something out there that could really, Yep, make life better for you?
So excellent, very good.
So that that's probably our first case study.
Good one.
It's probably a simple one to start off with.
Next one I've got, we've got husband and wife, late 40s kids are in secondary school.
So we're sort of in those in the throes of, you know, their life is busy.
There's a lot going on.
They've got a well established manufacturing business doing really well.
They've got staff, got a couple of mil in turnover.
Let's say they're pulling out half a mil of profit a year from the from the company.
So they've, you know, been quite successful in that more mature stage of of the business cycle.
They're currently renting, renting the manufacturing space, thinking about do we, do we buy, do we buy it?
So that's, that's on the table.
There's a DIF 7A loan floating around, which is definitely an accountant's dream.
So we can talk a bit about that as well too.
And, and the husband's sort of saying, look, I've probably got 10 years left in me and I want to be out.
And so it's sort of saying, well, how do we start planning around that?
I think I had, Yep, the combined soup is about 1.3 mil as well.
So they're putting away the Super.
So in a good position, but obviously very different to our first scenario, running through a family trust.
So we've got the structure sorted.
Michael, I might start with you financial planning.
They, they're coming to you.
Obviously they're not at retirement stage yet, but they're sort of now in the throes of it's like, well, that's, that's what we're getting ready for now.
The kids are going to be flying the coop very soon.
Their mortgage is, you know, going to be paid off in the next couple of years.
What?
What do we need to start really thinking about?
Matthew Moran / Michael Cherry
Well, I'd probably acknowledge the fact they've done really well.
Like the mid, what is building an empire?
Look, I think the most obvious thing, well, starting with their stated goal and objective, which is that they're trying to prepare themselves for retirement potentially in the next 10 years.
The really obvious thing there is that they'll still be under preservation age at that point, yes.
So all this moment.
Kris Tatt
So preservation age what?
Matthew Moran / Michael Cherry
So preservation age is the age in which you're able to start accessing super in some way, and to get at it you need to pass a condition of release.
So that can look like a few different things, but it always starts generally from 60.
Yes, and it well if on their timeline they won't yet be at that point.
Yep.
Kris Tatt
So effectively they've got a few years that they'll need to either self self fund or say I need to hang out till I'm 60.
What and and sort of make a decision based off yeah, the advice and and where where they're going.
Yep.
Matthew Moran / Michael Cherry
Well, I know, and I mean, I sort of look at it through the lens of, you know, again, it comes, it comes down to that what's the surplus?
I mean, 500,000 they're paying themselves.
They must have some money that and they're healthy super balances.
So they've obviously been pretty aggressive with their contributions.
So Yep, it's really then sort of saying, well, exactly that how do we fund the gap and or how do we build the wealth in other ways so that they're able to achieve this retirement goal?
Yep, Yep.
Kris Tatt
Yep.
Any anything else that you think they need to do that need to be focusing more on super well?
Probably need to understand a bit about what retirement looks like for them as well too I think.
Matthew Moran / Michael Cherry
Yeah, no, no, like, I mean, for them, everything's applicable even in the 40s.
You know, you could even argue that insurance piece, at least it should be reviewed.
I mean, they've built up significant assets, but you know, circumstances are changing.
Kris Tatt
If you've still got 10 years, that's still 10 years of potential.
Matthew Moran / Michael Cherry
Yeah, which could derail them, yes.
Yeah.
So the, I mean everything probably the other thing that I'd be bringing more into the conversation as well be the estate planning side as well, you know, I mean it's probably.
Kris Tatt
So what?
What are some of the things I'd need to consider?
Matthew Moran / Michael Cherry
Have they set up a will?
You know, if they've got power of attorney, they've got kids.
What do the nominations look like within superannuation?
They've got a fairly large balance.
Do they consider testamentary trust potentially for their will?
Like these are all sorts of things that for these people will probably be obvious benefits for them.
So, you know, I mean, not everybody's just, well, certainly not everybody's the same in the way we tackle it.
But you, you sort of can see the trajectory that they're on and assuming that, you know, they don't have any kind of catastrophic event, Yep, chances are they'll probably benefit from a few of these.
Kris Tatt
Things and I think one of the one of the powerful things, financial planning as well too is you can do modelling as well.
So you can sort of show them if we do a strategy, here's where it will get us to full retirement or this is what it can look like.
Matthew Moran / Michael Cherry
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, it's indicative only, right?
So because it's hard, I mean, yeah, modelling.
Modelling's really great to give clients a rough idea.
But I mean, the longer you project it out, the more fantastic it's going to look.
Yes.
So, you know, it's I, I, I tend to focus probably in the 1st 5 to 10 years and then then give a bit of a guide on the broader picture.
Kris Tatt
Which is sort of, I mean, if we're looking at 10 year time frame for retirement, it's probably a good level of time to say.
And I think if if a client was to ask you when do I need to start getting ready for retirement, 10 years is?
Matthew Moran / Michael Cherry
Probably.
I think it's reasonable, Yeah, Yeah, very reasonable, Yeah.
These clients, it would be really nice to have a conversation with them because it's never about what do we need to compromise on?
It's going to be more like, what do you want to do?
You know, like, let's really focus on what's going to make you guys happy.
And it's that wish list of goals and things.
I mean, everybody can do this.
But when when people come in and they've clearly got a good little foundation going on, it's a lot.
It's a lot more of a, you know, exciting conversation to be had.
Kris Tatt
Which I, I find actually is harder sometimes for clients because they've got options.
And it's almost like when they've got options, it's like, oh, I just thought that was the only thing I needed that I could do or thinking about.
So, but it's exciting.
But yeah, options can create some tension or some confusion.
Absolutely.
Yeah, exactly.
Yep.
That from from your side Division 7A lines are exciting, aren't they thrilling?
Look, definitely you'd approach it and and try and work out a strategy which I think would probably tie in more with that kind of longer term lens as well with the financial planning and being able to, I guess keep those at a minimum as well.
If you can, if possibly or you know, if there is we need more money out of because we've got these particular goals and things like that as well.
So how can we structure that in such a way that you can still achieve those goals, but not give yourself a tax headache at the same time?
So Division 7A is the classic one.
It always comes back to that.
So, So what, what, what causes for some people out there who may have just set up a company or haven't really thought about the impacts of yeah, of loaning themselves money from the company, What what's Division 7A loan and why?
Why does it become a bit of a problem?
So Division 7A can become an issue especially, Well, yeah, with companies where I guess the company is a separate tax on legal structure.
Yep.
And so if as the owners of the business, you're potentially taking a bit more money out of the company than perhaps what you're taking as a wage or as a dividend, you end up with a loan balance.
So you've got, you personally owe money back to the company.
Yep.
So the tax office has a, there's a specific legislation out there.
So DV7A, Yep, that says, well, if you've taken more money than you've actually taken as a wage or as a dividend, you need to put that online in terms and pay interest on that.
Yep.
And so that can become a bit of an impulse sometimes, particularly it comes up a lot when there's a big kind of cash flow need, for example.
So say in the example you've mentioned that do we look at potentially buying the business premises and reading it from ourselves because that is part of a wider structure or something like that.
So if there's a big cash flow need, then we've got money there, we'll just take it out of the company.
We'll do it all later.
But the, I guess the the sting on the tail is that the you're making, you're finding an easy solution now and making a problem.
That's right.
Yeah, it's kind of that quick fix now is going to become a longer term problem that is going to need to be addressed.
So the other issue as well with DV7A and things like that as well is that it kind of strips a bit of the value out of the company as well in terms of if say for you in the example, if they were looking to sell the business in five to 10 years time.
Yep, those Division 7A lines sort of aren't really adding a lot of value to the company and things like that as well.
So as a potential buyer that comes in and looks at it, they go, Oh yeah, that's sort of not real hardcore value in the company kind of thing.
So where we're able to sort of minimise those or actually be able to pay that back and, and get them out of the business that's, you know, really makes it a bit more attractive, I guess to someone, a potential buyer in the business as well.
So the, I guess one of the goals for the next 10 years for you would be let's get the books tidied up, make them as clean neat as possible.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Really, really good reflection of how the business is tracking and try and get, get it to a point where someone who comes along and wants to buy it.
Yeah.
Or if there's a succession plan maybe for the kids, but at at least it's in a position where it's looking really that's really attractive.
Yeah.
You you would try and I guess tie in with that longer term vision as well and what they want to do so if it is going to be passed on to the kids or Yep, we're gonna 5 or 10 years we've worked our butts off to get to this point so we want to cash out and enjoy the good life yes So you know what's the longer term plan there to to build value and actually make it an attractive business so you can maximise your return on your investment.
There's the small business concessions that might sort of come into play there as well.
So Yep, it could be.
Which haven't haven't been fiddled with at all with instant floating around.
So yeah, there's, look, it's all proposed nothing at the time we're doing this, that everything's sort of still proposed legislation and things like that.
But as things stand at the moment, not happy to make a call on it.
Who knows?
They changed their minds like they changed their clothes.
So, yeah, yeah, I guess you can only operate under whatever we've got at the moment.
So at this point in time, there is still small business concessions.
So there's still the opportunity if you sell your business, there is still some good tax concessions.
That's it.
And So what that looks like in terms of the broader overall pace and the work that Mick might be doing here to, you know, the here's what we want to do and we want to get money into super or we need to do this that and the other, you know, that sort of looking at the the value of the business and what the exit strategy is, there is always sort of something that's worth bearing in mind sort of which is easy to kind of miss.
I suppose a lot of people get stuck in the day to day and just keep kind of just got to keep going on the treadmill a little bit and probably sometimes stop and don't really stop and make a look at the wider piece and go, well, what is our exit strategy?
What is the plan with this business?
And I guess that's a 2 two part conversation isn't between the both of you to say we want to get the business to this, which gives us the funds to go and go and look at this.
And the small business concessions is also one people might not realise that you can actually put into super as well if you can't take it into your own name and think.
So there's a lot of options, but better off planning that now than waiting until that point and saying, well, now what do we do with this problem or with this?
Yeah, that's right.
And people might be avoiding that question as well because I go, I'm going to have to pay a heaping capital gains tax or whatever it might be and don't really want to know.
They just prefer to put their head in the sand a little bit.
Whereas if you get that advice early and you go, well, actually this is what the, the sale of the business and any potential tax on that looks like that might go that that might open some eyes and go, I didn't think it was going to be that bad.
Maybe we could sell it a bit earlier than what we were planning to do.
And that might change the picture in terms of, you know, look, I don't want to, I want to retire at 50 or whatever they want to do.
Well, OK, maybe we, we might not be able to do that, but we might be able to get you at 55 because that the tax that you're going to pay might not be as bad as what you're thinking it was going to be.
So there's sometimes a lot of value in terms of looking at the exit strategy and, and what that looks like.
And hey, that might not necessarily be as bad as what you think it is.
Yep.
And business valuation's probably another one.
I think that's sometimes people don't realise what their business is worth.
Sometimes it's worth a lot more and sometimes it could be worth a lot less as well.
But sort of getting an understanding if you've got a 10 year time frame, that that's probably a key, a key piece of the puzzle is actually saying, well, what, what, what is it at?
If I sold it tomorrow, what, what do I actually get?
Yeah, that's right.
And what the valuation of the business people might have in their mind is potentially quite a bit different to what the market, whatever someone is willing to actually pay for it.
So people, you might be disappointed, others might be quite surprised.
So yeah, and I think too, it's around how do we then move the levers to increase the value as well?
Because if you've got 10 years, that gives you time to actually implement change and strategies if you need to.
That's right.
Yeah, there's a bit of a lead time on that so that if there are easy wins out there that you could go, well, have you thought about doing this?
Is there something that you could do is there's things that you can change in the business then and that would add value and then potentially increase what you're going to receive at the end of the day?
Because, you know, people are putting their heart and souls into their businesses and, you know, don't really want to give it away for nothing unless they don't have have to.
So Yep, where we can come into that part and just say, hey, look, here's what's potentially looking at and have you thought about doing something?
It might be simple changes that might really increase the value of the business and and make it more attractive to a potential buyer so that that sell time can, it might not be 10 years, it might be 5 years time.
Sell it and you don't.
And that forms part of it.
You know, we don't have to work another day in our life unless we don't want any.
So yeah, things like that as well.
So, yeah, very good.
I think we're think that that that's good.
Good on that one.
We'll move on to the last case study, which is a couple.
He's 66, she's 64.
They've just retired.
He's got about 1.8 million super.
She's got about 600 in super.
They've got the home paid off.
They've got an investment property in their own name as well, which seems to be a bit of a, a thing that that's around there for the people.
They've got three adult children.
You know, they're now looking at going, well, we were retired.
What do we do?
How's that?
Look, Mick, I'm going to start with you.
You see probably a lot of these clients on a regular basis.
What, what are some of the things that questions you'd be talking about with them?
What are some of the concerns you see for this age group and, and, and some of the some of the ways that you're helping them navigate that?
Matthew Moran / Michael Cherry
Well, I guess that's where the fun begins, right?
This is where people people got to that point in life.
Now they're finally going to reap the rewards.
Kris Tatt
And I think too, this is a bit of the last was probably very much the the account needs to get involved.
Yeah, Where we see this natural progression of moving from the accountant holding probably the bigger end of the relationship to now it's sort of really with the financial planner saying, Yep, our job is to damn journey you through retirement and enjoy those funds and make them last.
Matthew Moran / Michael Cherry
Isn't it?
Yeah, you know, I'd agree with that.
And I mean just sort of to your point before about that working relationship between the accounts and the financial plans, I think it's it only adds significant benefit to the clients actually having that capability because straight away, I mean, you mentioned the rental property, right?
They've got a, not everybody wants to keep a rental property.
That can be a bit difficult, particularly the way the market's going at the moment.
People are sort of looking at this and saying what was it time to get out?
Kris Tatt
And I think the rules that like there's just.
Matthew Moran / Michael Cherry
A lot of a lot of monkeying pedal winds there.
Yeah.
And I mean, it's pretty obvious that the government's looking to try to increase supply for the younger generation.
They've made some changes.
So it's really common for clients to sort of look at that and say, all right, well, now, I've had this property for a long time.
What do I do with it?
Now?
That tends to come with a usually a hefty capital gain.
So getting an idea of what that's going to look like for them, because people don't necessarily expect that.
There will be tax to be paid.
Sometimes they think there may not be.
Sometimes they're not sure exactly how much it's going to be.
Yep.
And you don't want to be in front of a client when they've unexpectedly received a 10 or a $20,000 tax bill because although it may not be your fault that it's all in the positioning.
So it's making sure that, you know, people are comfortable with what it's going to look like.
And I mean, you know, I hate to keep banging the same drum, but it's all about their goals.
So it's expansion of those goals probably the other really obvious thing is that when people do retire, there's a lot of things you can do with superannuation to try to improve on the underlying tax within the fund, but more importantly generating a regular cash flow for and regular income.
Most people are used to for their entire working lives getting their pay going into their bank every fortnight or month a week.
And when they finish work, they convert, they move into the drawdown phase away from the accumulation phase, which is presents a degree of mental challenge in itself.
So removing as much friction from the idea of drawing on your investments is is really a huge value to the clients.
So if you can automate a pay that goes into their bank so that for all intents and purposes, everything kind of feels the same, that will help them transition into this into this full retirement phase.
I mean, it, it, it is, there's always going to be challenges for people when they've spent their whole lives doing something to the move across to the next.
Yes, but but I mean, it's our job to try to guide them through that process as best possible.
And I think that's one way we can help with that.
Kris Tatt
And so one of the things you do then obviously is sort of try and replicate a bit of their earning a salary from their investments rather than from their work and sort of make it feel like that regular money still coming to the bank account.
What what are some of the concerns you see popping up for retirees in terms of what?
Because yeah, you're you're talking to them day in and day out.
What are some of those common?
Matthew Moran / Michael Cherry
Will the money last?
That's number one.
Will the money last?
So we definitely tackle that generally with those projections.
Kris Tatt
My my question is, in the clients you've seen, how many have run out of money and become destitute?
Matthew Moran / Michael Cherry
Very few.
Very few.
Kris Tatt
So usually because there are four actions with of.
Matthew Moran / Michael Cherry
Oh, and I love having that conversation.
I love, I love, I love.
I'm saying to them, look, you probably can look at this through a different lens as in and and you back it up with your own work and your data and you sort of say, look, if you were to draw this much over this period of time, it's going to take this long for it to actually run out that I think.
Kris Tatt
That ongoing relationship helps with that too, doesn't it?
Because you can flag things early where if they come and see you once and disappear, how do you get that, support that, that?
So raise those red flags and those.
Matthew Moran / Michael Cherry
Well, you can't initially.
This is the thing people have got.
You got to build the trust.
This is why we operate under an ongoing model because it might take 1234 reviews.
I mean, I'm working with clients now.
It's taken all year to get them to feel really comfortable about their position because it's just repeating the same thing and showing them that we're achieving and ticking off the things that they want to do.
Yes, but over a period of years it could take to get them to really feel comfortable because again, you were moving them into a new phase where they're having to draw down and spend.
And and I mean that that can that can be a challenge for a lot of people.
So it is, it is better I think or easier than going the other way where you have to try to rein in expectation.
It is challenging for me to sit down with clients that unfortunately haven't put themselves or got themselves into that position yet for whatever reason.
And their expectation needs to be brought in a little bit.
However, it's important to have that conversation because they need to understand what their situation will look like.
Now we have the government support system in place which does cushion that quite significantly, but I don't think living off the full age pension for a couple is quite enough.
I think that is tight and and it's certainly not going, I mean, according to the ask for standards, it's not going to meet a, you know, moderate standard of living really.
So I think it's just about making sure people are aware of this.
Kris Tatt
It's there as a support net, yeah, probably not as well, yeah.
Matthew Moran / Michael Cherry
But then at the same time, your most, I suppose expensive years are likely to be in the 1st 10 years out of retirement.
Yeah, it's not for everybody, but it's likely to be.
Kris Tatt
And what?
Why is?
Matthew Moran / Michael Cherry
That it tends to be when people want to do all the expensive travel and they do all their objective, they buy the car by the caravan, do all those sorts of stuff.
I mean, this is normal.
This is what we're supposed to do.
Yeah.
And age really does play a part.
I mean, as people's health changes, you know, as they get older, you know, when they hit 80, they're not like what they were when they were sixty, yes, they will naturally slow down.
And I mean, there are arguments to and against this, but I truly.
But from what I've seen, from 80 onwards, you're just not going to be as likely to be doing as many things.
Kris Tatt
One other question which I I hear the other side, so I'm going to ask you it this way.
How many people have regretted retiring early?
Have you had many that have gone and gone?
Gee, I wish.
Matthew Moran / Michael Cherry
I could see it worked.
No, no, it's interesting.
Not really.
I I I think.
Kris Tatt
I I'm all hear it the other way.
Jeff should have done this.
Like that's all theories.
Matthew Moran / Michael Cherry
As in they should have.
Kris Tatt
Retired sooner stop stop like there's never usually I've never heard anyone regret like going oh Gee, I wish I'd have worked for another five years or.
Matthew Moran / Michael Cherry
The thing is the, the decision you make is the best decision, right?
So it's because you can't live the alternative, right?
So humans have this amazing ability to cope.
You know, you've got people now that have got nothing in retirement and they just deal with it and they're relatively happy.
It's all a perspective.
That's what you do with it.
Why would you be retiring early?
There's only a few reasons I can think of.
Health is preventing it.
You feel like you have enough, but the job isn't satisfying enough to hold on to it.
Or perhaps there's some other reason, like your wife needs support or something like that.
So that's the reason they're doing it.
It's not so much that I think they would ever look back and go, oh God, I wish I because you can always go back to work.
I suppose.
It's more just and I think.
Kris Tatt
That's one of the other things that's changes in it.
Like there's part time, yeah, there's flexibility.
Like I'm talking to people in their 70s who are still doing some contract work because wherever they're working still wants them and they're actually enjoying it because that's all they need to do.
And and it's not, it's not being a big impost on them and it's a bit of extra player money or helps with the next holiday and things like that.
So.
Matthew Moran / Michael Cherry
Money is not the key to happiness, but it certainly unlocks and makes things available to you that can create happiness.
So I mean, by that definition, it kind of is a key.
So yeah, I don't know.
I mean, look, I, I think it's, it's all about perspective and how you view it, you know, and then making sure that you've, you've, you've got a firm understanding of, of what it is you actually want.
Kris Tatt
Yep, last question just on on this one is adult children.
Are you seeing the Bank of Mum and Dad becoming more and more of a an issue for retirees in terms of they've got to be putting funds aside to help the kids with the property?
Like I'm even saying that they're now worried more about the grandkids than the kids as well.
Yeah.
Matthew Moran / Michael Cherry
Yeah, look, it's, it's interesting.
I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm it varies.
It varies.
I definitely see that parents are have their own expectations to help the kids.
But at the same time, almost all of these clients that I'm seeing now say no, no, no, we're going to spend this money and that kids will get the house right.
So, and that might not be for 25 years.
So really there's no expectation for them to actually help out the kids.
That will be the grandkids, won't it?
So you know, it, it, it does vary.
I mean, look, housing prices where they are, I think there, there needs, there usually needs to be some kind of assistance in some way.
I think that's going to be really common.
But probably what we are seeing is probably what was one of the biggest intergenerational wealth transfers going on at the moment where people will be inheriting lots of money.
So yes, I suppose it's, you know, it's, it's inevitable, but it just does vary.
Kris Tatt
Yes, Yep.
It's, it is very much dependent on each client, isn't it?
Yep, Yep.
Matt, retirees, your job gets a little bit simpler when people are sort of in that retirement space, aren't they?
If there's not the business to operate and things like that, the complexity starts to reduce a fair bit.
What are you, what are you usually doing for retirees?
They've got the rental property still in their own name.
So there's still some taxable income.
Yeah.
And I think that's one of the things people don't realise is that actually you're in a fair bit before you need to worry about lodging a tax return.
Even then.
Yeah.
And money from super.
Well, yeah.
Tax free.
Tax free.
So not even most instances.
So at right now, yeah.
Yep.
Yeah, I understand.
Caveat.
Yeah.
Look, I mean, as part of probably a conversation, we kind of took tie in with, I guess our financial planners and stuff and say, look, have you considered this a rental property, you know, are you elder to it?
Do you want to keep lodging a tax return?
You know, the ongoing cost of doing that, not only in terms of maintaining the property, but compliance costs and things like that as well.
Did you want to look at selling it and cashing it out and then, you know, you're off the hook basically in terms of doing tax returns and things like that.
And so, you know, we, we give the, the full on handball across to our mates in financial planning and leave it.
You know, that's sort of, I guess one of the rewarding parts of what we do is where we can see people progress from starting the business, building the business, selling the business to then go, well, we've got nothing more to do with, you know, we, we can't help you anymore.
Go and see financial, go and see Mick, go and see the financial planners and get all that sorted.
So, but I think that's one of the big things for like what?
What can a 65 year old earn in their own name before they ever need to lodge a tax return?
Yeah, Well, I guess everyone gets their first 18,200 tax free as a, there's more so some other offsets and things like that available to people.
Yep, retirees.
So you can, you can almost get up to about sort of $22,000 before you have to actually start paying tax, which I think is for like if it's a couple that's about $40,000 worth of either dividends or interest that they've got to be earning before they yeah, or rental.
That's right.
Rental income once you take out expenses.
So it is, it is quite a, you'd have to have quite a bit in your own name before you need to worry about that, wouldn't you?
Yeah, that's right.
I mean, look, it does depend on what assets and what income generating things are holding.
So, you know, a lot of people will still have, if they've got a share portfolio, you know, the old refundable franking credits.
Yes, absolutely worth lodging available at the moment.
Still available at the time of recording.
Yeah.
Like the rental property?
Yeah.
You are still required to lodge a tax return even if you do still have the rental property in your name just because that's just a requirement, a tax office and things like that as well.
But if it might just be the one thing that you need to in your tax return.
And I, I mean, hopefully by that stage you hopefully paid off the loan and it's negative, not negatively geared or anything like that.
But that's sort of, you know, it is what it is really.
So given that you don't have any other sort of tax blank come in your own name, there's probably not a lot of great benefit in negative gearing and things like that.
Not that that's gonna be an issue going forward, but I think that's one of the powerful things is that at a certain point, people may not need to lodge a tax return and they're drawing down on super.
They're still getting a lot of income.
It's just not taxable income.
But they actually need to worry about the tax implications, which I think people aren't always aware of in retirement.
Is it like sometimes, like, I know, Michael, we will have the conversation with a client where they're going.
I need 100 grand in retirement.
Well, they're thinking they need to earn 100 grand because they're going to pay tax for.
It's actually you only need to worry about the net amount.
It's like what's the take home?
And then we'll structure around that not, not have to take out tax like you do when you're earning a wage.
Yeah.
Look, I mean, as people are retired, the tax burden or the tax sort of issues are less in terms of what you need to actually and what we help with our role is.
So, yeah, that's kind of working with you guys as financial planners and being able to kind of, hey, if we can take that off someone's plate and one less thing they have to worry about doing every year, then that's definitely a win for sure and just makes life a bit easier.
So Yep, that excellent.
With a couple of minutes left, I'd love to get just a, a message you'd like for, for listeners, each of you for to, for listeners to take away from today, because I think we do see lots of clients in lots of different situations.
And I think there's a lot of value in the knowledge we can bring to those situations.
But what's one thing that if you could say one thing to listeners to say take, take this away, Mick, I'm going to start with you.
What's one thing that that that you would want listeners to actually go home and either start doing or start considering as part of their?
Matthew Moran / Michael Cherry
Circumstances.
I heard this one recently.
I checked it before came I I wanted to make sure so.
Kris Tatt
I'm glad you've checked.
Matthew Moran / Michael Cherry
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Only.
Well, all right, so 70 percent, 70% of Australians have an idea of who their super is through and how much they have.
Only 30% of Australians actively engage with their superannuation.
Yeah.
Wow.
So 2/3 of people aren't actively engaging.
And what that means is that they.
Kris Tatt
And how big is the Super system?
Matthew Moran / Michael Cherry
From a dollar perspective.
Kris Tatt
4 1/2 truth or.
Matthew Moran / Michael Cherry
Something yeah, it's the biggest, oh, it's the biggest asset that we, well, it's generally the second biggest asset that we'll ever own, but it could be the biggest, you know, so it's, it is so important and it's gonna drive everything that you wanna do in retirement.
So when I when I mean actively engaging, it's about understanding the underlying investment and potentially insurance, because there can be insurance in there as well.
So the big take away, I would say is that all you got to do is download the app because there will be one login, have a look and get a bit of a cursory understanding of exactly how it's invested.
So that would be the take away.
Kris Tatt
Yeah, love it.
That's a great one.
My take away probably is if you're not sure, ask ask the question.
Like it's much easier to there's no stupid no stupid questions, is there?
Absolutely, yeah.
What you think I get this from people all the time that ring up like I've got a bit of a silly question, but that silly question then becomes 510 more questions that what they thought was something was quite simple is actually, you know, leads more questions and things like that, that if they didn't ask it initially in the first they're silly, what they thought was a silly question.
They then go, OK, so I can and then I can do this and I can do that.
And so it opens up a world of possibilities to them so that, you know, options that they didn't think were available to them previously.
Suddenly they go, oh, OK.
And you just see the light bulb moment.
Go on.
So ask the question.
Don't be scared.
Like.
And it's much easier to do things now rather than trying to unpick it later on.
Yes.
So 100% of.
Great.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So don't be scared.
Ask the question.
Always love it.
All right, Very good guys with your super.
Ask the question, Nick, Matt, thank you so much for today.
It's it's just highlights again, the value of the knowledge and experience we can bring to help clients.
So just appreciate both your insights today and it was really good and thank you.
Thank you everyone out there looking forward to this.
We'll put some chapter marks in it as well, in case you want to jump to sections.
I'll go back and send it to someone that you think might help as well.
But good luck and make sure you start engaging with your super and and asking all, all the questions that you need to ask.
Thank you.
